No Disc Guide? How To Find Balance Between Atonement & Healing

[Steve the Sloth]

So it doesn't look like there's a Disc guide in the sticky section of this sub forum which is depressing

I finally got around to hitting 90 on my priest and only have a basic idea of how to heal on him right now (played Holy from BC to end of WotLK). I know Disc is incredibly powerful right now but I'm not too sure how they're excelling. What's a healthy rotation look like and how much of their healing comes from Atonement? I would love to start raiding on this guy but I'm the type that likes to know everything about the spec before I queue up for any LFR's or anything.

p.s. I went to How to Priest and the guide seemed like it was written pre-MoP or right as MoP launched without extensive raid testing on the spec (especially in it's current state in 5.4). I would love a nice guide if anyone has anything!

[Tock20]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ing-for-advice

There is some good advice in this thread, just ignore the mouseover vs clicking debate in the middle.

(top of page 3 has a decent post http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...r-advice/page3)

[Sillychan]

Did you read Derevka's guide (not the basic priest guide?)

It should answer most of your questions. If you have any specific questions I'd be glad to help.

- - - Updated - - -

I know Disc is incredibly powerful right now but I'm not too sure how they're excelling.

Primarily through Divine Aegis generation. Your prime DA generators are your level 90 talents (and selecting the appropriate one for the fight is key), followed by Atonement. Atonement is powerful, but the bulk of large DA generation that covers a substantial part of your raid will be from your level 90 talents, whereas atonement will fit the smart-healing niche, providing substantial healing and absorbs as needed.

What's a healthy rotation look like and how much of their healing comes from Atonement?

Healers don't really have rotations. Anyone who says otherwise isn't maximizing their potential. That being said, healing in general, and disc especially, rely on a list of priorities. Disc looks something like this:

Emergency Healing (Will someone die right now if I don't: Pain Sup, Void Shift, Direct heal penance*, PW:S --> Glyphed BH, FH
CD's You're assigned to do at the times they come up (Barrier namely, SS)
Archangel (iff t16 2pc) + Divine Star if talented [Divine Star 2x within Archangel]
PW:S under lucidity (2-3 casts ideally)
Penance Offensively
HF/PW:Solace on low health targets (for ToF) > Regular HF/PW:Sol
PW:S for rapture
Spirit Shell with archangel up (can do AA + DS -->PW:S for BT --> IF+ SS --> PoH x3/4 depending on haste --> DS again)
PW:S on tanks **
PoM when it'll bounce
PW:S outside of Lucidity or Rapture, non tank targets
Smite.

-----

*Offensively, penance is far better. Defensively should only be used in the most dire of situations. I never use it in this manner on farm, and I used it sparingly on Heroic Siegecrafter / Heroic Paragons because of intense tank damage. When used offensively, you get 3 individual smart heals (each volley.)

**PW:S on tanks when not LMG proc or rapture is defintely a use your brain moment. If there is tank damage, do it. If not, it's better to cast smite.

There are times where you would intelligently hold AA+DS rather than mash on CD, mostly for when desecrated weps fall into melee.

Twist of Fate is king, it also double dips from atonement.

Level 90 talent selection is critical, SS timing is critical, PW:S whoring with your lmg is...well, whoring but critical.

It is worthwhile to hold a smite or two, in favor of living AA/DS up perfectly. Omitting smites in favor of using better spells is beneficial in 2 ways: You use less mana, you have better DA generation. Do NOT get caught chain casting smites together outside of extremely low damage situations, for Penance/HF/DS/PW:S is often a much better choice. If you want to bring more damage, make sure your DS is cleaving, and penance/HF are still higher priority outside of glyph of smite simply because they hit harder.

p.s. I went to How to Priest and the guide seemed like it was written pre-MoP or right as MoP launched without extensive raid testing on the spec (especially in it's current state in 5.4). I would love a nice guide if anyone has anything!

This really goes to show how little you really do understand the spec right now then, no offense. It's probably one of the best guides there is right now, and H2P in general has extensive discussions regarding talent selection on a fight-per-fight basis, in addition to a subforum where there are multiple theorycrafting topics from trinket discussion to the Crit/Mastery ratio spreadsheet.

Additionally:

XVII. Changelog
09.08.13 - Updated for 5.4
9.12.13 - Updated Cascade's bounce number, and Divine Star/Halo DR
9.27.13 - Updated to include DA creation on Raidwide Damage when leveraging L90 abilities/2pc T16

Derevka, among other contributors, was on 5.4 ptr, and raids extensively (he's the disc priest of Something Wicked.)

[Steve the Sloth]

Did you read Derevka's guide (not the basic priest guide?)

It should answer most of your questions. If you have any specific questions I'd be glad to help.

- - - Updated - - -



Primarily through Divine Aegis generation. Your prime DA generators are your level 90 talents (and selecting the appropriate one for the fight is key), followed by Atonement. Atonement is powerful, but the bulk of large DA generation that covers a substantial part of your raid will be from your level 90 talents, whereas atonement will fit the smart-healing niche, providing substantial healing and absorbs as needed.



Healers don't really have rotations. Anyone who says otherwise isn't maximizing their potential. That being said, healing in general, and disc especially, rely on a list of priorities. Disc looks something like this:

Emergency Healing (Will someone die right now if I don't: Pain Sup, Void Shift, Direct heal penance*, PW:S --> Glyphed BH, FH
CD's You're assigned to do at the times they come up (Barrier namely, SS)
Archangel (iff t16 2pc) + Divine Star if talented [Divine Star 2x within Archangel]
PW:S under lucidity (2-3 casts ideally)
Penance Offensively
HF/PW:Solace on low health targets (for ToF) > Regular HF/PW:Sol
PW:S for rapture
Spirit Shell with archangel up (can do AA + DS -->PW:S for BT --> IF+ SS --> PoH x3/4 depending on haste --> DS again)
PW:S on tanks **
PoM when it'll bounce
PW:S outside of Lucidity or Rapture, non tank targets
Smite.

-----

*Offensively, penance is far better. Defensively should only be used in the most dire of situations. I never use it in this manner on farm, and I used it sparingly on Heroic Siegecrafter / Heroic Paragons because of intense tank damage. When used offensively, you get 3 individual smart heals (each volley.)

**PW:S on tanks when not LMG proc or rapture is defintely a use your brain moment. If there is tank damage, do it. If not, it's better to cast smite.

There are times where you would intelligently hold AA+DS rather than mash on CD, mostly for when desecrated weps fall into melee.

Twist of Fate is king, it also double dips from atonement.

Level 90 talent selection is critical, SS timing is critical, PW:S whoring with your lmg is...well, whoring but critical.

It is worthwhile to hold a smite or two, in favor of living AA/DS up perfectly. Omitting smites in favor of using better spells is beneficial in 2 ways: You use less mana, you have better DA generation. Do NOT get caught chain casting smites together outside of extremely low damage situations, for Penance/HF/DS/PW:S is often a much better choice. If you want to bring more damage, make sure your DS is cleaving, and penance/HF are still higher priority outside of glyph of smite simply because they hit harder.

I shouldn't have used the word rotation but I'm glad you knew what I meant, this helps a ton and I appreciate the feedback.

Can I get away with running Mindbender for some consistent mana regen until I'm a bit more geared? Or does PW:S far outweigh the regen benefits of bender?

(and yes, it was Derevka's guide I read. Had great points on the background workings of disc but didn't get too in-depth in actual use of atonement, just the idea behind it).

[Aparthia]

When considering what talent to pick you need to take into account the opportunity costs as well.

Mindbender grants you 1.75% of your mana every time it attacks. It has a default attack speed of 1.5 and in its 15 sec duration then hits 10 times. This results in MB giving you 17.5% of your mana every minute.

Power Word:Solace makes HF cost no mana and actually return 1% every time it's used. With its 10 sec cooldown, the raw mana return of Power Word: Solace is thus 6% per minute.

Since HF is one your most effective heals, you should be using it very often and since you're also no longer paying any mana for HF, which you would have to if you used HF with mindbender, you're effectively saving 1.8% mana by using PW:S. This means you need to factor in the 1.8% mana HF would cost if you used another talent than PW:S.

You also have to account for the fact that with PW:S you have access to Shadowfiend which MB replaces. Shadowfiend returns 24% of your mana every time it's used(3% on every attack, with a 1.5 sec attack speed and 12 sec duration). That's on average 8% mana return per minute if used on cooldown.

Adding all this together, PW:S is the better choice if you're using it at least every 18 seconds since the mana return then becomes larger than the mana return of Mindbender. Just as an example. If used every 15 seconds PW:S will give you 11.2% mana back on its own(4*2.8), adding the 8% average from SF puts it at a total of 19.2 which is 1.7% more mana per minute. If used on cooldown PW:S will give a total of 24.8% mana back per minute(6*2.8+8), which is 7.3% more mana than with Mindbender used on cooldown.

[Sillychan]

To follow what Aparthia said regarding PW:Sol vs MB

If you're using PW:Sol 5/min+, PW:Sol is generally the best choice unless for some reason you need the added damage simply because even though mana return is neck and neck (PW:Sol pulls slightly ahead after greater than 5 casts/min), it incentivises PW:Sol usage and you're getting the 100% PW:Sol heal, which doesn't behave like atonement heals which are only 90% of damage dealt. If for some reason you can't use PW:Sol on CD, MB is better. There are times where you would want the extra damage, namely in 10H situations early on in progression.

Regarding Atonement:

To borrow what Derevka wrote, "Be Dynamic" If you want to just HF/Penance/Smite, you can. But you would only be using a portion of your toolkit, and thus gimping yourself. Atonement is just one of the many tools that come together to make disc strong.

[Aparthia]

You actually don't have to use it 5 times a minute for PW:S to be superior. If you can use it on average 3.4 times a minute it's equal to MB in terms of mana return(that's once every 17.7 second), the more you use it than that, the more it pull ahead.

[Sillychan]

You actually don't have to use it 5 times a minute for PW:S to be superior. If you can use it on average 3.4 times a minute it's equal to MB in terms of mana return(that's once every 17.7 second), the more you use it than that, the more it pull ahead.

I don't believe this is true as of 5.4, the mana returns (and damage) from MB were buffed. Are you sure? You can PM me the math/link. I just want to make sure I have the correct info.

I was under the impression using it 4/min made it even with MB, greater than 4/min it pulled ahead, as of 5.4.

[Steve the Sloth]

To follow what Aparthia said regarding PW:Sol vs MB

If you're using PW:Sol 5/min+, PW:Sol is generally the best choice unless for some reason you need the added damage simply because even though mana return is neck and neck (PW:Sol pulls slightly ahead after greater than 5 casts/min), it incentivises PW:Sol usage and you're getting the 100% PW:Sol heal, which doesn't behave like atonement heals which are only 90% of damage dealt. If for some reason you can't use PW:Sol on CD, MB is better. There are times where you would want the extra damage, namely in 10H situations early on in progression.

Regarding Atonement:

To borrow what Derevka wrote, "Be Dynamic" If you want to just HF/Penance/Smite, you can. But you would only be using a portion of your toolkit, and thus gimping yourself. Atonement is just one of the many tools that come together to make disc strong.

I'm gonna make the switch this week and give it a go.

As of right now I'm ilvl 498 doing roughly 60k HPS in LFR. I know it's not a good basis to go off of but does this sound somewhat reasonable? I'm getting better at identifying the proper 90 talent per fight and mainly stick to offensively using Penance/HF/Smite as main heal generators and running PoH with Spirit Shell. Other CD's are used as needed. Most of the time my Atonement healing trumps my Divine Aegis healing which is usually opposite for more geared Disc's I've ran with, I'm assuming this is in fact due to my low gear level right now.

Granted, I'm sure this is basic for Disc healing right now but just wanna make sure I'm utilizing what I need to be.

[Sillychan]

Yeah what you're seeing is mostly due to gear. There is a definite shift around 522 ilvl towards DA being 30-40%, with SoO gear onwards making 50-60% of your healing from DA completely normal.

[mogra]

Mindbender actually hits 11 times but only gives mana back on 10 of those hits resulting in 10*5,250 = 52,500 mana per minute. Solace with perfect use gives (3000+5400)*6 = 50,400 in addition to normal shadowfiend which hits 9 times so 9*9000 = 81,000/3 = 27,000.

Mindbender: 4,375mp5, ~10k more dps (dps would vary by gear)
Solace (6): 6,540mp5
Solace (5): 5,750mp5
Solace (4): 5,050mp5
Solace (3): 4,350mp5

If someone would check my math I'd appreciate it.

[PosPosPos]

Mindbender actually hits 11 times but only gives mana back on 10 of those hits resulting in 10*5,250 = 52,500 mana per minute. Solace with perfect use gives (3000+5400)*6 = 50,400 in addition to normal shadowfiend which hits 9 times so 9*9000 = 81,000/3 = 27,000.

Mindbender: 4,375mp5, ~10k more dps (dps would vary by gear)
Solace (6): 6,540mp5
Solace (5): 5,750mp5
Solace (4): 5,050mp5
Solace (3): 4,350mp5

If someone would check my math I'd appreciate it.

It doesn't matter, for a class that tries its very best to shave off spirit, having more mp/5 is just contradictory to its goals.

Mindbender contributes more dps compared to Shadowfiend. and FDCL is useless in everything except PvP.

[Dracodraco]

It doesn't matter, for a class that tries its very best to shave off spirit, having more mp/5 is just contradictory to its goals.

Mindbender contributes more dps compared to Shadowfiend. and FDCL is useless in everything except PvP.

You are completly mistaking the "goals" of disc priests. It isn't to shave off as much spirit as possible. It's to get as many secondary throughput stats as possible over spirit, without having mana struggles. Now, as you are a reasonably smart individual, you are, of course, aware that the reason disc can shave off more spirit is because of good usage of their active regen. Getting 2K Mp5 more (just assuming the above numbers are close to correct", cba checking at 5 AM - if not, then disregard the napkin math below as it's based on that) will allow you to use far less spirit, getting more secondary throughput stats etc.
The only time where you'd have a point is if your priest was already running minimum spirit (5-6K with current gear), and still had way too much mana to spare. Then you could consider taking Mindbender - but why would you? You're hitting Solace on CD either way, it's one of your best spells as disc.
Let's humor ourselves and say that the priest takes Mindbender instead, though, for the 10K dps and loses the 2K regen/sec.
Now, a heroic warforged Samophlange with full upgrades returns about the same mana with its proc as going from mindbender to solace. This raises a curious decision - if your priest runs with a samophlange for regen (and by far the most priest does), but feel that they can drop from solace to mindbender, that means that they could also instead make the switch from a samophlange to a DPS trinket - such as BBoY, which would give you what I'd imagine is a similiar dps increase, BUT ALSO A *THROUGHPUT* increase, due to the proc of the trinket affecting your healing.

But TL;DR - you're dumb if you think that disc should go mindbender just because disc dislikes spirit. Disc dislikes spirit because our active regen allows us to dislike spirit. Not because we dislike regen.

[PosPosPos]

You are completly mistaking the "goals" of disc priests. It isn't to shave off as much spirit as possible. It's to get as many secondary throughput stats as possible over spirit, without having mana struggles. Now, as you are a reasonably smart individual, you are, of course, aware that the reason disc can shave off more spirit is because of good usage of their active regen. Getting 2K Mp5 more (just assuming the above numbers are close to correct", cba checking at 5 AM - if not, then disregard the napkin math below as it's based on that) will allow you to use far less spirit, getting more secondary throughput stats etc.
The only time where you'd have a point is if your priest was already running minimum spirit (5-6K with current gear), and still had way too much mana to spare. Then you could consider taking Mindbender - but why would you? You're hitting Solace on CD either way, it's one of your best spells as disc.
Let's humor ourselves and say that the priest takes Mindbender instead, though, for the 10K dps and loses the 2K regen/sec.
Now, a heroic warforged Samophlange with full upgrades returns about the same mana with its proc as going from mindbender to solace. This raises a curious decision - if your priest runs with a samophlange for regen (and by far the most priest does), but feel that they can drop from solace to mindbender, that means that they could also instead make the switch from a samophlange to a DPS trinket - such as BBoY, which would give you what I'd imagine is a similiar dps increase, BUT ALSO A *THROUGHPUT* increase, due to the proc of the trinket affecting your healing.

So basically, you agree with me and are arguing semantics(active regen versus passive regen versus regen in general) for the sake of arguing.

Thank you for elaborating on what I am already saying.

Hint: You can use Mindbender AND use a dps trinket.

But TL;DR - you're dumb if you think that disc should go mindbender just because disc dislikes spirit. Disc dislikes spirit because our active regen allows us to dislike spirit. Not because we dislike regen.

No, I am saying that Disc should go mindbender because disc wants less regen in general, which is the entire point of dropping spirit to begin with. If you want to drop spirit, but can't drop any further, then obviously you look to other sources to drop effective mp/5.

Calling regen "active" or "passive" doesn't change the fact that if you have too much of it you need to min max and bring better talents to suit your demands.

[Jimjam38]

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ing-for-advice

There is some good advice in this thread, just ignore the mouseover vs clicking debate in the middle.

(top of page 3 has a decent post http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...r-advice/page3)

I just about jizzed when you linked it to me, glad to know people like my advice

I plan on writing a disc guide after my uni exams are done. I know its kinda late in the xpac but its still ages till wod, and a lot of people are rolling fresh disc priests in the meantime. It will be aimed at beginners through to moderately advanced players.

- - - Updated - - -

If you have too much spirit then PW:Sol vs Mindbender is just a matter of dps vs slightly increased throughput. Disc doesnt want less regen, we just want more of any secondary stat other than spirit. Regen that isnt tied to secondary stats doesnt have to be shaved. Anything that involves gear, including trinkets, is tied to secondary stats, and hence we want to shave it if we have too much spirit, since it can be replaced with other secondary stats that are more preferable. However, mindbender and PW:Sol are not tied to secondary stats, and if you already have too much regen from spirit, the regen these talents provide becomes irrelevant, and so the choice comes down to their other benefits, specifically, whether you want a slight dps gain (mindbender) or a slight hps gain (PW:Sol).

[Dracodraco]

So basically, you agree with me and are arguing semantics(active regen versus passive regen versus regen in general) for the sake of arguing.

Thank you for elaborating on what I am already saying.

Hint: You can use Mindbender AND use a dps trinket.



No, I am saying that Disc should go mindbender because disc wants less regen in general, which is the entire point of dropping spirit to begin with. If you want to drop spirit, but can't drop any further, then obviously you look to other sources to drop effective mp/5.

Calling regen "active" or "passive" doesn't change the fact that if you have too much of it you need to min max and bring better talents to suit your demands.

If you have too much, sure, drop it - but the entire point is, if you're running min-spirit without 2-3 shamans to back you up, then you're not going to have too much regen unless you're healing normal modes in 580 ilvl. I've always been an advocate of min spirit, but even so, giving up what essentially is the same regen as the strongest regen-trinket in game for DPS (not even healing throughput) is going to end up being too "big" of a waste.

[PosPosPos]

If you have too much spirit then PW:Sol vs Mindbender is just a matter of dps vs slightly increased throughput. Disc doesnt want less regen, we just want more of any secondary stat other than spirit. Regen that isnt tied to secondary stats doesnt have to be shaved. Anything that involves gear, including trinkets, is tied to secondary stats, and hence we want to shave it if we have too much spirit, since it can be replaced with other secondary stats that are more preferable. However, mindbender and PW:Sol are not tied to secondary stats, and if you already have too much regen from spirit, the regen these talents provide becomes irrelevant, and so the choice comes down to their other benefits, specifically, whether you want a slight dps gain (mindbender) or a slight hps gain (PW:Sol).

Mindbender is 10k dps over it's untalented counterpart. Solace is, at best, a 10% increase in healing over Holy Fire, which is roughly 0.3% to 0.5% of your total healing assuming Solace accounts for 3-5% of your healing.

Now it's very simple:

- You drop spirit for other secondary stats when you have too much regen.
- You still have too much regen after reforging, and you can't drop spirit any further.
- So obviously, you look to other sources of regen to move to throughput. Specifically dropping trinkets or changing talents which give you more mana to give you less mana but do more throughput/dps.

If you didn't have enough regen to begin with, you obviously don't change talents(this is where I question if you are managing your mana properly and checking things like Rapture), and much less reduce spirit.

At it's core, we as disc priests reduce spirit to reduce our regen because we have excessive regen from other sources already. The removed spirit simply has to go somewhere and obviously we want it to go to crit or mastery since it's zero sum anyway.

And when we can't reduce our spirit any further and we still have too much total regen(which is really common, just honestly ask yourselves how many times you actually go totally oom even on progression without the siegecrafter trinket), naturally we look to talents and trinkets etc.

[Dracodraco]

Mindbender is 10k dps over it's untalented counterpart. Solace is, at best, a 10% increase in healing over Holy Fire, which is roughly 0.3% to 0.5% of your total healing assuming Solace accounts for 3-5% of your healing.

Now it's very simple:

- You drop spirit for other secondary stats when you have too much regen.
- You still have too much regen after reforging, and you can't drop spirit any further.
- So obviously, you look to other sources of regen to move to throughput. Specifically dropping trinkets or changing talents which give you more mana to give you less mana but do more throughput/dps.

If you didn't have enough regen to begin with, you obviously don't change talents(this is where I question if you are managing your mana properly and checking things like Rapture), and much less reduce spirit.

At it's core, we as disc priests reduce spirit to reduce our regen because we have excessive regen from other sources already. The removed spirit simply has to go somewhere and obviously we want it to go to crit or mastery since it's zero sum anyway.

And when we can't reduce our spirit any further and we still have too much total regen(which is really common, just honestly ask yourselves how many times you actually go totally oom even on progression without the siegecrafter trinket), naturally we look to talents and trinkets etc.

And this is where my argument is, if you are considering changing from solace to mindbender, then your first step should be to get rid of your regen trinket and get a throughput trinket (PBoI or BBoY) instead. It'll provide the same DPS benefits, it'll provide much bigger healing benefits (from "None" to "Some"), and it will probably end up costing less mana if you aren't rolling with a 588 Samophlange.

It's also quite clear that you've never really played a priest on progress this tier, if you think that dropping both trinket and the mana regen equivelant of a trinket will end up leaving you with enough mana to be usefull. You can probably smite, but in the end, you've got too little. So once again:
Disc doesn't get rid of spirit because we do not need regen. Disc gets rid of spirit because the active regen we get from good usage of PW:S and Rapture and Shadowfiend+hymn is enough to keep us at a decent regen level. Removed PW:S from that, and you'll struggle.

So, TL;DR - I have yet to find evidence of a priest that can drop both regen trinket AND regen talent, and still remain competitive mana-wise in any intensive fight that is not being overhealed anyway.
If you aren't OOMing yourself by the end of a fight, you didn't start spamming PW:S soon enough ^_^.

[PosPosPos]

If you have too much, sure, drop it - but the entire point is, if you're running min-spirit without 2-3 shamans to back you up, then you're not going to have too much regen unless you're healing normal modes in 580 ilvl. I've always been an advocate of min spirit, but even so, giving up what essentially is the same regen as the strongest regen-trinket in game for DPS (not even healing throughput) is going to end up being too "big" of a waste.

I haven't seen any *pure* disc priest worth a damn run anything more than min-spirit or slightly above min-spirit even for progression. And not all of them had the siegecrafter trinket at that time.

If they can do fine without the siegecrafter trinket AND have min-spirit, I don't see why running dps trinkets/or even double amp is going to suddenly make them run out of mana as a result of lack of regen.

[Dracodraco]

I haven't seen any *pure* disc priest worth a damn run anything more than min-spirit or slightly above min-spirit even for progression. And not all of them had the siegecrafter trinket at that time.

If they can do fine without the siegecrafter trinket AND have min-spirit, I don't see why running dps trinkets/or even double amp is going to suddenly make them run out of mana as a result of lack of regen.

Well first off, most of those discs would have had a heroic horridons (which provides a little more regen than flex Samophlange, and a little less than normal)
But that said, it won't. Which is what I'm saying. Pick any two:

Min spirit.
Mindbender.
Double DPS trinkets.

You just picked Min spirit and double DPS trinkets. Your previous argument was that picking all 3 (that is, including mindbender) wasn't a big deal, while Solace is pretty much the entire reason why disc does so well mana-wise.