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  1. #61
    Druids are arguably the most versatile, complex class in the game and as druids we were fine with that.
    What seems like button bloat to other classes fit perfectly with druids simply because we are not other classes.
    Druids were never a good candidate for a first/intro to wow class. Those were mostly classes like Paladins.
    These changes destroy hybrid utility, complexity and versatility - and why?
    We don't want to be homogeneous with other classes and we shouldn't be.
    Most of all, it destroys
    fun.
    [/QUOTE]

    ^^^THIS.. Wake up blizz!

  2. #62
    I am going to make the argument that our hybrid nature is MORE in play than ever before in WoD (for ferals. guardians not having rejuv and resto/moonkin not having bear thrash is fucking bonkers)

    In WoD, you will still have the following hybrid-esque abilities as cat:
    • soothe
    • Faerie Fire
    • Cyclone
    • Healing Touch
    • Rejuvenation

    Moonfire for feral has never been more powerful than it will be with LI. Feral healing has never been more powerful than it will be in WoD. Cats can still go Bear Form and tank effectively for 24 full seconds using SI back to back, or with HotW.

    In bear form you will use mangle and faerie fire on cooldown and fill with thrash spam. For healing, you will spread rejuv and spot with healing touch. For spellcasting you will spam wrath. This is all perfectly fine to me.

    I am disappointed we lost roots, but as I pointed out, you can still talent into an instant cast entangling roots. Otherwise what is the complaint? You think hibernate, barkskin, and might of ursoc were crucial examples of our hybrid nature? I disagree. Those abilities are either rarely used or cooldowns. I think having fundamental versatile spells like healing touch and cyclone are more indicative of this and in WoD they are just as effective (or moreso) in the meta as ever.

    Soothe & FF won't work because FF actually puts you in combat and draws aggro.
    FF isn't a taunt so it won't overtake tank aggro, and if you're trying to dispel the enrage off something, then you're already in combat with it.

    Mass Entanglement is an extremely weak talent
    Mostly because it's pointless when you have Entangling Roots already, and PS affecting it. Without those two things, an instant aoe root with a 30 second cooldown seems reasonable against two other slows in the tier.

    Putting all that in a glyph would make it too mandatory
    Essentially allowing cyclone to be cast in cat form is only saving people 1 second of gcd every time you cast cyclone. It don't think this makes it mandatory even for pvp, assuming there are other nice major glyphs, but you may be right.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-06-15 at 05:06 PM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I am going to make the argument that our hybrid nature is MORE in play than ever before in WoD

    In WoD, you will still have the following hybrid-esque abilities as cat:
    • soothe
    • Faerie Fire
    • Cyclone
    • Healing Touch
    • Rejuvenation

    Moonfire for feral has never been more powerful than it will be with LI. Feral healing has never been more powerful than it will be in WoD. Cats can still go Bear Form and tank effectively for 24 full seconds using SI back to back, or with HotW.

    In bear form you will use mangle and faerie fire on cooldown and fill with thrash spam. For healing, you will spread rejuv and spot with healing touch. For spellcasting you will spam wrath. This is all perfectly fine to me.

    I am disappointed we lost roots, but as I pointed out, you can still talent into an instant cast entangling roots. Otherwise what is the complaint? You think hibernate, barkskin, and might of ursoc were crucial examples of our hybrid nature? I disagree. Those abilities are either rarely used or cooldowns. I think having fundamental versatile spells like healing touch and cyclone are more indicative of this and in WoD they are just as effective (or moreso) in the meta as ever.


    FF isn't a taunt so it won't overtake tank aggro, and if you're trying to dispel the enrage off something, then you're already in combat with it.


    Mostly because it's pointless when you have Entangling Roots already, and PS affecting it. Without those two things, an instant aoe root with a 30 second cooldown seems reasonable against two other slows in the tier.


    Essentially allowing cyclone to be cast in cat form is only saving people 1 second of gcd every time you cast cyclone. It don't think this makes it mandatory even for pvp, assuming there are other nice major glyphs, but you may be right.
    if u think FF, hibernate, bark skin and ursoc were "rarely used," u are a bad druid. I have most of those on macro and use them all the time. every single battle. Also most of your points are examples of ferals, not druids. We are looking at this as a whole for all specs. I think they can, and should keep a few of those. If people like you think they are "rarely used," then don't put them on your bars. Don't dumb down the only complex class blizz. KEEP DRUIDS FUN AND COMPLEX.

  4. #64
    FF isn't a taunt so it won't overtake tank aggro, and if you're trying to dispel the enrage off something, then you're already in combat with it.
    You're missing the point. I mean that soothe doesn't cause any aggro to a target while casting FF does. There's more to the game than just pve & tanking.


    Mostly because it's pointless when you have Entangling Roots already, and PS affecting it. Without those two things, an instant aoe root with a 30 second cooldown seems reasonable against two other slows in the tier.
    Yes, with the loss of ER, Mass roots is more valuable, but not compelling enough I think. Roots will be weak in WoD.
    Essentially allowing cyclone to be cast in cat form is only saving people 1 second of gcd every time you cast cyclone. It don't think this makes it mandatory even for pvp, assuming there are other nice major glyphs, but you may be right.
    That glyph would definitely make it mandatory for pvp because you're suddenly giving Feral a way to CC reliably in addition to the existing toolkit we have. The nine lives glyph will also arguably be mandatory (depending on comp), but I'm going to say most of the time - as we're a popular train target. Even more so with the loss of Barkskin it will be a game of 'catch the kitty in a stun'.

    The PS idea would actually make cyclone harder to cast than the one you proposed because a purge happy healer can get rid of our PS buff - which is why I brought it up. Something that is huge for Feral, but still not game breaking.



    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I am going to make the argument that our hybrid nature is MORE in play than ever before in WoD (for ferals. guardians not having rejuv and resto/moonkin not having bear thrash is fucking bonkers)

    In WoD, you will still have the following hybrid-esque abilities as cat:
    • soothe
    • Faerie Fire
    • Cyclone
    • Healing Touch
    • Rejuvenation

    Moonfire for feral has never been more powerful than it will be with LI. Feral healing has never been more powerful than it will be in WoD. Cats can still go Bear Form and tank effectively for 24 full seconds using SI back to back, or with HotW.

    In bear form you will use mangle and faerie fire on cooldown and fill with thrash spam. For healing, you will spread rejuv and spot with healing touch. For spellcasting you will spam wrath. This is all perfectly fine to me.

    I am disappointed we lost roots, but as I pointed out, you can still talent into an instant cast entangling roots. Otherwise what is the complaint? You think hibernate, barkskin, and might of ursoc were crucial examples of our hybrid nature? I disagree. Those abilities are either rarely used or cooldowns. I think having fundamental versatile spells like healing touch and cyclone are more indicative of this and in WoD they are just as effective (or moreso) in the meta as ever.
    You see, regardless of having a powerful Moonfire it was the fact that we did have a moonfire. It was weak, but heck it was fun. It really didn't need 'pruning'.
    If I want Bloody Thrash or passive SR I don't get to have my moonfire. Fun = gone.
    As for bear, so just Mangle, FF & Thrash. Are you seriously trying to tell me that just having 3 bear abilities is fun? I completely disagree with you on that.

    How in Azeroth's name is Soothe a 'hybrid-esque' ability? How is Faerie Fire a hybrid ability? Cyclone? HT? Rejuv? So you're just listing abilities we already have and try to claim that we're MORE hybrid in nature after losing other spells?

    It's not our fault that you rarely used hibernate / barkskin / MoU. The rest of us used our entire toolkit. You (and Arielle to some extent) seem to be stuck in the mindset that these changes are balanced around your preferred playstyle. In your case it appears to be dungeons - and in her case heroic raiding. And that's just the most asinine and selfish thought you could have.

    You're trying to tell us it's fine because it doesn't affect your playing or your notion of what a hybrid is. The barkskin complaint is actually a big pve and pve complaint. If you don't know the advantage of skin vs SI then I'm not sure you understand your druidic abilities very well.


    "This is all perfectly fine to me." - the only saving grace with this is that it doesn't seem other druids share that opinion.

    I really want to know what you're smoking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Otep View Post
    KEEP DRUIDS FUN AND COMPLEX.
    This is the problem. I'm seeing the trend that people supporting excessive and unneeded ability pruning (amongst the forums of other classes I play) are primarily doing it because they can't handle the existing number of keybinds or that they feel it's too complex. But it's actually not. It's incredibly easy, and catering to that school of thought will make druids no longer fun to play for all but a small handful of people that just want to be dungeon tank bots or something else.

  5. #65
    I have a feeling that Blizz recruited some noob team to work on druids so they decided to remove anything they don't like or think we don't need. Druids are hybrid class and that is the reason why have i been playing as druid since vanilla ( granted 1st you could only be good as healer ) but for the last 6+ years well its a different story. We dont need those changes, we need you to tweak them a little not change/remove them completely...
    Last edited by markos82; 2014-06-15 at 05:57 PM.

  6. #66
    Mechagnome Venteus's Avatar
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    Changes are stupid. I'm most annoyed by the boomy loss of FF
    Kil'Jaeden - US

    Thanks to Lilliputia for the amazing signature!

  7. #67
    The argument that I'm consistently reading is that losing abilities like Barkskin, Hibernate, and Might of Ursoc remove the hybrid element of druid that attracted players. However, The hybrid nature of druid is indicated by its fundamental versatile diverse core abilities, like healing touch and cyclone, which haven't been removed; not because of periodically used cooldowns like barkskin or might of ursoc, or extremely narrowly used abilities like hibernate.

    The abilities I listed are hybrid-esque for ferals because they are not claw and tooth physical abilities and are more in line with other specs/roles that the class offers. I don't see wild panthers and lions running around in real life (or in the game) healing things or causing cyclones. These are hybrid abilities.

    tl;dr - I'm saying that (for ferals at least) there is no reason to think the hybrid aspect of our spec has been degraded by this ability pruning.

    As for bear, so just Mangle, FF & Thrash. Are you seriously trying to tell me that just having 3 bear abilities is fun?
    Of course it is. If you're a feral druid, you're not expected to jump into bear too often, and when you do, these abilities function just fine to maintain rage or keep threat. If you want to have a more involved tanking rotation, you can respec to guardian with little resistance.

    If I want Bloody Thrash or passive SR I don't get to have my moonfire. Fun = gone.
    Bloody Thrash hasn't been a thing for a few alpha builds now. But yes, this is the versatility of the spec in play. You get to choose what aspects of it you value most.

    succinct additional points:
    • feral healing has never been more powerful than it will be in WoD
    • Spot-tanking for feral druids in WoD is actually better than it was in MoP
    • Heart of the Wild is no longer competing against dps talents, so more attractive
    • With the change to base stats, Bear Form is a significantly better form to sponge damage in pve or pvp than it was for many patches and expansions now.
    These all point to the idea that feral is actually better in WoD at acting like a hybrid than it did in MoP, but I will sorely miss entangling roots, and the old PS+Cyclone, and Nature's Swiftness.

    Your additional theme of your argument is that you appreciate the complexity of the spec, and I can agree with this, but I prefer depth. Hibernate was a good ability to differentiate good ferals from mediocre ferals, but its interaction with PS in feral vs feral was really dumb, and in an environment where Blizzard is cutting back drastically on the number of CCs, it should come to absolutely no surprise that they are cutting things like Hibernate, which have a very limited use compared to things like Cyclone, which involve a lot more interesting decision making.

    To reiterate a bit, I am sad to see roots go, and I agree that removing moonfire was pretty dumb.

    And as a postscript: You can stop with the personal accusations. I'm a very experienced WoW player and more than once dedicated myself to each and every aspect of the game from rated battlegrounds to hardcore raiding, all as feral. I know the purposes of each ability, and I do use each ability on live, but I can understand the reasons for why they are unnecessary in an improved meta.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-06-15 at 07:18 PM.

  8. #68
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Hi Moosie. I know you mentioned before that you're on a lower bandwith connection and unable to stream. If you do have the chance, please do upload some footage to youtube. I haven't been able to find a single Feral alpha video.
    Recorded the entire dungeon that is open on Alpha, around 30 mins long, 4 bosses. Will upload overnight, should be on here tomorrow. It's about 1.5gb. Will take around 5 hours to upload. WTB > New ISP.

    I will try and upload the new ones as they come out though.
    Last edited by Moosie; 2014-06-15 at 07:24 PM.
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  9. #69
    i have a question Omen of Clarity (Feral) now affects all Druid spells and abilities. i dont get that change rip,rake,shred,maim,ferocious bite and in general any dmg ability is already free when OoC is up healing touch is free with PS proc casting it already consume OoC so where is the change here

    also what is exactly the the reason of guardian pick HOTW since he dosnt have rejuvenation/tranquility as far as i know 6% increase stats gone in WOD so what exactly HOTW will do to guardian druids
    Last edited by rottenpen; 2014-06-15 at 08:08 PM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by rottenpen View Post
    i have a question Omen of Clarity (Feral) now affects all Druid spells and abilities. i dont get that change rip,rake,shred,maim,ferocious bite and in general any dmg ability is already free when OoC is up healing touch is free with PS proc casting it already consume OoC so where is the change here
    It affects rejuvenation now. That's probably going to end up being a bad thing, as it'll cause accidental clearcast consumptions when it procs just as you're casting rejuvenation.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    The argument that I'm consistently reading is that losing abilities like Barkskin, Hibernate, and Might of Ursoc remove the hybrid element of druid that attracted players. However, The hybrid nature of druid is indicated by its fundamental versatile diverse core abilities, like healing touch and cyclone, which haven't been removed; not because of periodically used cooldowns like barkskin or might of ursoc, or extremely narrowly used abilities like hibernate.

    The abilities I listed are hybrid-esque for ferals because they are not claw and tooth physical abilities and are more in line with other specs/roles that the class offers. I don't see wild panthers and lions running around in real life (or in the game) healing things or causing cyclones. These are hybrid abilities.

    tl;dr - I'm saying that (for ferals at least) there is no reason to think the hybrid aspect of our spec has been degraded by this ability pruning.
    You are incorrect. It's actually quite the opposite. The spec (in this case Feral) has been degraded by the latest ability pruning changes. You're also misunderstanding the argument. The complaint is that the hybrid element is being whittled away, but not all the abilities we're losing have anything to do with being a hybrid.

    You try to justify losing barkskin because you didn't want to or didn't know how to use it. You try to justify losing hibernate because you didn't want to or didn't know how to use it. That is extremely selfish and punishes the entire druid community for your personal gain. We shouldn't have to suffer loss of fun abilities for your inability / choices.

    MoU is arguably a hybrid-esque ability because it puts you in Bear, but it provided a more interesting way to survive rather than 'here's your 70% dr cooldown to use in cat form'. It makes the class more interesting. The changes you advocate make the class one-dimensional within that spec and boring.


    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Of course it is. If you're a feral druid, you're not expected to jump into bear too often, and when you do, these abilities function just fine to maintain rage or keep threat. If you want to have a more involved tanking rotation, you can respec to guardian with little resistance.
    Once again you're trying to force a playstyle onto me. We're fine as we are now. We can't optimally be a tank if we're Feral, but we at least have the fun utility of some Guardian abilities. Most of that gets taken away with these changes and we're left with too little. I'm not okay with "just fine" even if you are. Some of us play this game for things other than dungeons / raiding, which is something you seem to refuse or cannot accept.

    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Bloody Thrash hasn't been a thing for a few alpha builds now. But yes, this is the versatility of the spec in play. You get to choose what aspects of it you value most.

    succinct additional points:
    • feral healing has never been more powerful than it will be in WoD
    • Spot-tanking for feral druids in WoD is actually better than it was in MoP
    • Heart of the Wild is no longer competing against dps talents, so more attractive
    • With the change to base stats, Bear Form is a significantly better form to sponge damage in pve or pvp than it was for many patches and expansions now.
    These all point to the idea that feral is actually better in WoD at acting like a hybrid than it did in MoP, but I will sorely miss entangling roots, and the old PS+Cyclone, and Nature's Swiftness.
    I'll concede that our healing looks better on paper, but i'll wait for the numbers to reserve judgement on that. Spot-tanking is arguable, but I don't see why I have to lose abilities in bear when we had plenty of space on our bars. The abilities we're losing all have some purpose and are fun to use. Instead of outright removal they should be balanced if they were considered too powerful.

    It's good that Hotw is no longer competing with dps talents, but given that we've so few abilities outside of our main spec role it makes the talent lackluster at best. I disagree that Feral is more hybrid in WoD.

    The PS-Cyclone that you miss was actually too powerful and one of the changes that actually made sense. It was part of the removal of instant cast CC abilities in game which is why I don't mind losing instant root via PS & Nature's Grasp. But oh, we do keep instant root via Mass Entanglement I guess. I'd rather keep our iconic cast time roots and have something else for that tier to replace ME.

    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    Your additional theme of your argument is that you appreciate the complexity of the spec, and I can agree with this, but I prefer depth. Hibernate was a good ability to differentiate good ferals from mediocre ferals, but its interaction with PS in feral vs feral was really dumb, and in an environment where Blizzard is cutting back drastically on the number of CCs, it should come to absolutely no surprise that they are cutting things like Hibernate, which have a very limited use compared to things like Cyclone, which involve a lot more interesting decision making.

    To reiterate a bit, I am sad to see roots go, and I agree that removing moonfire was pretty dumb.

    And as a postscript: You can stop with the personal accusations. I'm a very experienced WoW player and more than once dedicated myself to each and every aspect of the game from rated battlegrounds to hardcore raiding, all as feral. I know the purposes of each ability, and I do use each ability on live, but I can understand the reasons for why they are unnecessary in an improved meta.
    Depth and complexity don't have to be mutually exclusive. No one is asking for hibernate to be instant cast - if that's what you think you really need to read these posts a second time because I have no idea where you're getting that from. They can very well cut hibernate from PS (which they did) and keep it in game without removing it.

    Limited use of hibernate is subjective and I disagree. Perhaps you haven't experienced enough content outside your gameplay to be able to find interesting uses for hibernate, and I don't know why i need to keep repeating this - we shouldn't be punished for your inability to use or your choice not to use a spell.

    I apologize for the comments that came off as personal attacks. It's frustrating to see people like you advocate for the removal of iconic, fun class abilities that don't need to be removed either because they're balanced and not broken/overpowered (and if they are they can adjust the spell without removing it) or because they took space on our action bars (which is a terrible excuse because as druids we're fine with complex gameplay and juggling many abilities).

    I won't stand by and be quiet when class and spec are having the fun aspect completely destroyed for selfish reason.

  12. #72
    The spec (in this case Feral) has been degraded by the latest ability pruning changes.
    I just don't buy the argument that the removal of some cooldowns (barkskin, etc), niche abilities (hibernate), and a few more (entangling roots) as more impacting than the expanded feral healing model, improved feral moonfire usage with lunar inspiration, vastly stronger bearform damage soaking with the removal of base health and inclusion of glyph of ursol's defense, and more accessible heart of the wild (the hybrid talent)

    Personally I agree that I would rather keep moves like roots, lacerate, and moonfire, but I can understand that Blizzard wants to make the specs more diversified, and that, for example, in the case of lacerate, if feral bear form threat and rage generation can make do just fine without it, then it's a valuable trade-off. I personally really enjoy entangling roots (and the previous PS+Cyclone or NS+Cyclone) because it encouraged lateral thinking in feral pvp; not simply tunneling whomever you want dead which I fear is where we are headed, but at the same time I can look optimistically at the now more attractive bear form charge and mass entanglement. Plus, unless blizzard replaces Lunar Inspiration, feral moonfiring is not going anywhere if you're interested in doing it.

    On the topic of Hibernate: I keep getting this impression of hibernate advocates that they're all high and mighty and looking down their nose at people that don't think it's a well-designed move because they are just so much better at the game than the detractors who clearly must not know how to use it otherwise there's no way at all they would have such an opinion. It's just not a very interesting move to me. It's long range, easy to cast, only works on very specific types of enemies, and lasts a long time. No brainer. Do you want to CC something and hibernate works on it? Hibernate it, no choice involved.

    Cyclone is short range, requiring you to get be mindful of your distance; it doesn't last very long, requiring you to attentively monitor it; it can only be on one enemy at a time, requiring you to make choices; and it works on anything, which puts the preceding far-more-interesting decisions on the forefront.

    Of course you can argue the merits of having both, but as stated, in an environment of removing CC across the board, I can understand why Blizzard considers it a weak link. I like to regard some of this abilities as follows: If they introduced the move (like hibernate) as a new ability launching with an expansion (or hell even just a talent) would it excite you? Hibernate certainly wouldn't excite me...

    It's important to note that I'm not making any of the decisions for how this class or feral specifically is balanced (if I were it wouldn't look like it does! i'm gonna miss my snapshotting ;_; ), but am merely explaining the logic behind these choices from the logical advocate perspective and attempting to highlight optimistic aspects of the class that may be overlooked when the community overreacts negatively as expected.
    Last edited by hullaballoonatic; 2014-06-16 at 07:06 AM.

  13. #73
    Check out the video posted by Moosie from some Alpha footage, look at the chat box at 10:52 and see what the bear tank says: Video

  14. #74
    The Patient Grum88's Avatar
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    Can't believe we're losing barkskin in other specs... I love the new SI but having that small mitigation button seems so much better in my eyes... Wish we could keep it.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by hullaballoonatic View Post
    I just don't buy the argument that the removal of some cooldowns (barkskin, etc), niche abilities (hibernate), and a few more (entangling roots) as more impacting than the expanded feral healing model, improved feral moonfire usage with lunar inspiration, vastly stronger bearform damage soaking with the removal of base health and inclusion of glyph of ursol's defense, and more accessible heart of the wild (the hybrid talent)
    Can't make it any clearer than the posts in this thread already have. Perhaps you could re-read them.

    Personally I agree that I would rather keep moves like roots, lacerate, and moonfire, but I can understand that Blizzard wants to make the specs more diversified, and that, for example, in the case of lacerate, if feral bear form threat and rage generation can make do just fine without it, then it's a valuable trade-off. I personally really enjoy entangling roots (and the previous PS+Cyclone or NS+Cyclone) because it encouraged lateral thinking in feral pvp; not simply tunneling whomever you want dead which I fear is where we are headed, but at the same time I can look optimistically at the now more attractive bear form charge and mass entanglement. Plus, unless blizzard replaces Lunar Inspiration, feral moonfiring is not going anywhere if you're interested in doing it.
    You're mistaken that the specs will be more diversified by stripping them and making them spec specific or simply removing them. It's a poor trade off because your class is playing itself for you. You don't have to lacerate to gain additional rage/threat, now it just happens because it's baked into your other abilities. It discourages putting some thought into what ability to use. It removes an ability that was fun to use.

    Instant cast cyclones (through PS) were incredibly broken in our favour. It's a good change that they are removing all instant cast cc. The mistake they made was removing just ours in MoP and neutering 3v3 viability where they could have let Feral keep NS + cyclone seeing as a 1min instant clone was not bad seeing all the other classes' instant cc that wouldn't be addressed until WoD. For WoD I support the removal of all instant cast cc, including cyclone. I actually want meaningful cc because right now we are tunneling damage bots and we will remain that way in WoD unless we have some way of tossing out cc.

    LI doesn't justify removing the moonfire spell. You're making assumptions when you have no concrete evidence. It's a better guess that LI was put in place as a compelling ranged cp generator. It wasn't meant to replace caster form moonfire because caster form moonfire didnt generate cp's, didn't use energy as a resource, could be hit back to back, and only did a piddly amount of damage - but it had it's purpose.
    This punishes Ferals that want other talents and want to keep a fun, iconic druid ability. It's not going to harm anyone if it's left it game and it was a terrible decision to remove it.

    Mass Entanglement is also a bad talent and should be replaced with something more compelling.

    On the topic of Hibernate: I keep getting this impression of hibernate advocates that they're all high and mighty and looking down their nose at people that don't think it's a well-designed move because they are just so much better at the game than the detractors who clearly must not know how to use it otherwise there's no way at all they would have such an opinion. It's just not a very interesting move to me.
    The thing is you've clearly demonstrated that you have no desire to or know to use hibernate if you think it's such a limited use ability. Whether you want to paint yourself into having an inferiority complex as a result is no concern of mine. It's not a very interesting move to you but it's interesting to an overwhelming number of druids. I have a feeling that you're in a very small minority in not liking / using hibernate. That's your own fault. We shouldn't suffer the loss of an ability because of it. You come off as extremely selfish for advocating its removal and I'm baffled you don't see it or you're in denial about it.

    It's long range, easy to cast, only works on very specific types of enemies, and lasts a long time. No brainer. Do you want to CC something and hibernate works on it? Hibernate it, no choice involved.
    What's your point? You want to cc anything you cyclone it. No choice involved. Range? Get closer. This is so weak I can't even consider it an argument. I'm going to have to write it off as you trolling or being half-asleep when posting.

    Cyclone is short range, requiring you to get be mindful of your distance; it doesn't last very long, requiring you to attentively monitor it; it can only be on one enemy at a time, requiring you to make choices; and it works on anything, which puts the preceding far-more-interesting decisions on the forefront.

    Of course you can argue the merits of having both, but as stated, in an environment of removing CC across the board, I can understand why Blizzard considers it a weak link. I like to regard some of this abilities as follows: If they introduced the move (like hibernate) as a new ability launching with an expansion (or hell even just a talent) would it excite you? Hibernate certainly wouldn't excite me...
    The uses of hibernate are limited and despite the range and duration cyclone is superior to it in many environments. Until the recently announced changes to cyclone, it was the most powerful cc in game in a pvp setting and it will still be strong. Hibernate's range and duration could be adjusted. Just removing it seems like a lazy, uninspired change and I question your support of it.

    The scenario I paint where you have both hibernate and cyclone is far more interesting and opens up different options. With your way you just cyclone as your one and only cc. That is boring, dull game-play and no one (except you perhaps?) will enjoy that.

    A much more sensible concern regarding cyclone is it's sharing of DR with Fear.

    It's important to note that I'm not making any of the decisions for how this class or feral specifically is balanced (if I were it wouldn't look like it does! i'm gonna miss my snapshotting ;_; ), but am merely explaining the logic behind these choices from the logical advocate perspective and attempting to highlight optimistic aspects of the class that may be overlooked when the community overreacts negatively as expected.
    Well, obviously you're not making any balance decisions. I would be horrified if you were, given your thoughts on some of these changes . But I'm not sure how you can explain the logic behind Blizzard's changes unless you have statement made by them in regards to the specific changes I am concerned about. Until then it's just your own speculation and the community is going to remain vocal about it because it affects their gameplay and their fun.

    I think the game developers would be wise to remember that in the end this is a game, after all. It's primary goal is to be fun, to be enjoyable to play. Obviously they cannot please everyone, but I think they would do well to keep the identity of the class intact and cater to the overwhelming majority in the druid community.

  16. #76
    Dreadlord Khatix's Avatar
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    The travel form changes is the WORST thing they have done so far, that needs to be undone.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Check out the video posted by Moosie from some Alpha footage, look at the chat box at 10:52 and see what the bear tank says: Video
    Spamming thrash, Wow, it's wrath again, the expac that made me quit feral tanking...

    Also I haven't seen anyone pointing out the huge pvp hit this pruning did. No barkskin essentially, only castable root for two specs, resto has ironbark (1 min CD), moonkin have nothing. I'm not too sure what kitty's have for defense now.

    So what's going to happen in WoD when they focus the druid? We all go bear form and pray we live? Displacer beast / Travel form and run away? Heal through it? Our survival choices are now tied into talents, which is something I don't particularly like. Also if getting focused, one can assume you will be getting interupted, which makes casting CC's / heals a bit difficult.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodrayne of Lothar View Post
    The travel form changes is the WORST thing they have done so far, that needs to be undone.
    They don´t need to undo it at all. All there is need to be done is let we macro the other forms:

    /cast flight form
    /cast travel form
    /cast aquatic form

    No problem in having a button that does what my macro already does (not the one I typed) and when I want to use something else I can macro it. Easier to the newcomers with flavor for old schoolers.

    About ability pruning, I do agree with the people who still say we are hybrids. Those skills are rarely used on other specs, and when they are, they are weak. We are no longer the druid of vanilla or BC, if I remember correctly, my balance skills already did pitiful damage when speced feral, even though I had them, so in practice you quite never used them.

    I would accept that moonfire or hurricane could be used to pull mobs and so on, but we can do that with other stuff. Such as wrath to pull from range or faerie fire. If you want FF as balance you still got the talent.

    What I believe is the issue is that people don´t want to make choices and blizzard is forcing them to.

    I will miss the skills that are being removed, but we are in a good place and the hybrid you cry over died in WotLK.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by morislayer View Post
    Spamming thrash, Wow, it's wrath again, the expac that made me quit feral tanking...

    Also I haven't seen anyone pointing out the huge pvp hit this pruning did. No barkskin essentially, only castable root for two specs, resto has ironbark (1 min CD), moonkin have nothing. I'm not too sure what kitty's have for defense now.

    So what's going to happen in WoD when they focus the druid? We all go bear form and pray we live? Displacer beast / Travel form and run away? Heal through it? Our survival choices are now tied into talents, which is something I don't particularly like. Also if getting focused, one can assume you will be getting interupted, which makes casting CC's / heals a bit difficult.
    I think pvp implications have been mentioned, but some of the posters in the thread that advocate barkskin removal either seem to forget that pvp exists outside of their pve-sphere or just don't care at all. Remember that barkskin is useful in pve as well, saying it isn't would just demonstrate a lack of imagination and knowledge of the class.

    I'd actually rather have 1 charge of SI if we can keep barkskin. The biggest weakness for resto has and always will be the hardswap, so I wonder how bad this will affect them, not to mention cats & owls. With no barkskin it will be a game of gib the cat/owl in a rogue stun.

    What's going to happen is this goes live unless as a community we are vocal, constructive, and offer suggestions/solutions to the problem. Displacer is not an option for Feral. We have absolutely no reliable way to cast cc short of being in melee range & using bash/dis roar prior to it. Don't forget that as moonkin you lose the pushback benefits of casting a barkskin + cyclone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soultrigger View Post
    They don´t need to undo it at all. All there is need to be done is let we macro the other forms:

    /cast flight form
    /cast travel form
    /cast aquatic form

    No problem in having a button that does what my macro already does (not the one I typed) and when I want to use something else I can macro it. Easier to the newcomers with flavor for old schoolers.
    Maybe it's the difference in language, but I have no idea what any of that means. Could you explain?


    Quote Originally Posted by Soultrigger View Post
    .. Those skills are rarely used on other specs, and when they are, they are weak. We are no longer the druid of vanilla or BC, if I remember correctly, my balance skills already did pitiful damage when speced feral, even though I had them, so in practice you quite never used them.
    This is delusional talk. You people that didn't use the abilities in your spellbook shouldn't get to justify the loss of said ability for that reason. It's selfish and ignorant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I posted this in another thread in response to ability pruning and I thought it would be apt to have it here. Paraphrasing my own post:

    I love the game and the variety of classes that are there. I have about 4 90's and plan on having all classes at max. I really enjoy the very simple playstyle of the Ele shaman for what it is, it's simplicity. I don't actually think that's a flaw.

    In regards to the druid, yes there are lots of abilities, but it's not like it's too bad for a beginner. There are lot that can be done to actually make the process easier for newer players or someone new to druids instead of thoughtless removal of abilities. Certain spells could be gated better through the leveling process.

    They're doing some pruning that most of the community are looking forward to, such as:

    -Combining Mangle & Shred
    -Combining Pounce & Rake

    There is a minor issue with rake & incarnation in light of the change, but I won't get into it right now. We just gained two keybinds there with some well thought out changes. This is the type of thing we need. Not just removing hibernate, not just removing barkskin. And others.

    There is a way to achieve their goal and keep everyone happy. It just cannot be done through lazy, thoughtless changes. The silver lining is that it's still early and we can hopefully get some thoughtful changes.

  20. #80
    Sorry, I am not a native english speaker, what I mean is: they can give us:

    Travel Form now automatically transitions between Aquatic, Land, and Flight versions, as is appropriate to the Druid’s location.
    - Glyph of the Stag now teaches the Druid a separate shapeshift ability, Stag Form. Stag Form will not switch between different Travel Form, and allows the Druid to act as a mount for other players.

    As you can see both options are still there, we can use the ground "stag form" if we glyph it. Another thing they can do to easy this is let us macro our old forms if we want to, such as:

    /cast flight form
    or
    /cast aquatic form
    or
    /cast travel form (the ground one)

    Also you better stop calling people delusional because they don´t agree with you. As a matter of fact, I played feral in vanilla and was kind of hated by it. Also to kill someone in pvp I would also use pounce, rake, rip, moonfire and entangle and most of the time watch them die out of all that dot damage (if they didn´t I could just bear charge, bash and do other fun stuff). So I do miss the skills, and I won´t cry like a baby over loosing them. But one thing is for sure, such skills do so poor damage as feral nowadays (caster ones) that it is worthless to use them already, that is all I am saying.

    We will have wrath to pull from range, faerie fire and moonfire if we choose the talent Lunar Inspiration.

    Just so you know, I play balance nowadays.

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