1. #1

    Heroic Garrosh question

    Hey guys.

    So my raid group is gonna be doing garrosh heroic 10m next week.

    I just have some tank related questions.

    We are probably going to do 1 tank because our dps isn't that great.

    So here is our setup:

    Brewmaster (Can come on Prot pally) both around ilvl 575

    Bear tank (probably going to come on his lock) around ilvl 576

    Ele shammy, Lock, Mage, 2 Hunters, Ret Pally, Disc priest and resto shammy


    I am the brewmaster thinking of switching to Prot pally because I was told prot pallys are really good for garrosh 10m heroic solo tanking.

    Is this true? or should we use the bear or brewmaster?

  2. #2
    Over 9000! Hyve's Avatar
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    As a Brewmaster who has done Heroic Garrosh, your DPS will be adored. Sure, Protection Paladin brings a fair amount as well, and various other utilities, but as a Brewmaster with the 4-set Bonus you can do just as much self-healing, more DPS and nice Add Control when needed.

    Stick with whatever you're best at though.

  3. #3
    Pallies are better than brewmasters for solo tanking H garrosh 10m. Bears also do quite well. You should take the pally or bear, assuming equal skill and gear between all 3 classes. Both will do more dps and self-healing than the monk, as shown by the rankings.
    Last edited by Sylithh; 2014-06-14 at 12:58 PM.

  4. #4
    I've solo tanked on a prot pally but unfortunately don't know much about brewmasters.

    Theres really 2 keys to solo tanking this fight.
    1) Surviving the p1 adds. You will need stuns and knockbacks after any warsong or frankly, no amount of CD's will save you if the adds aren't controlled or dead.
    2) The stacking DoT in P2. You will get 7/11/11 stacks respectively before each whirl. (Sometimes 12 fu Blizz!) It ticks for 55k per stack so 11 stacks is about 600k if you don't mitigate it. Add that the boss melees for about 650k if you don't mitigate it.

    So really the biggest part of the fight is the DoT for a tank. As a prot pala unglyph DP and pop it at 3 stacks and 11 stacks. Get an external at ~7 stacks. I used tog et vigi and ironbark. You also have GoAK / AD if you are feeling a bit squishy.

    The tl;dr of this is that if a monk has a good toolkit for the DoT then by all means go for it. Pala does have a good toolkit to solo tank the fight though.

  5. #5
    Paladins are better at sustaining themselves and have better raid CDs whereas Brewmasters will generally do more DPS. Whichever you use depends on what your group needs more.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Paladins are better at sustaining themselves and have better raid CDs whereas Brewmasters will generally do more DPS. Whichever you use depends on what your group needs more.
    This is so far from being correct that it hurts. I suppose it may be predicated on the outdated assumption that Brewmasters outDPS any other tank class (they don't), or predicated on the assumption that only the Monk can soak Annihilates (not the case). Except for 3 significant outliers (who are still behind the top paladin parses), Monks on 10-man HC are, on average, 50-100k behind paladins of equivalent rank.

    You only ever want to bring a Brewmaster to Garrosh if you desperately need him to kite the adds. Their active mitigation does not fit the damage pattern well (they are inherently weaker against high sustained magical damage than basically any other tank), their DPS is sub-par at very high vengeance, and they bring no raid CDs outside of Avert Harm which will likely get them killed. Even a Blood DK would be a better choice than a Brewmaster to solo-tank Garrosh.

    If your tank plays Prot and BM equally well, there's just no defending bringing the BM if you're going to solo-tank. If he's dogshit at prot and a god at BM, obviously have him bring the BM, but assuming equivalent skill BM is simply never the right choice to bring for solo-tanking this particular fight.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    This is so far from being correct that it hurts.
    Indeed. The misinformation is that post is terrible. But yeah, prot paladin > Brewmaster all day. Shouldn't even have to think about that one.

  8. #8
    I feel hurt by you saying "even a blood DK", solaire. Dk's are freaking amazing for solo tanking garrosh, considering AMS is up for every whirl/high stack explosion, and tons upon tons of personal CDs to rotate against the damage, along with blocking the burst from garrosh' melee attacks with BS.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    I feel hurt by you saying "even a blood DK", solaire. Dk's are freaking amazing for solo tanking garrosh, considering AMS is up for every whirl/high stack explosion, and tons upon tons of personal CDs to rotate against the damage, along with blocking the burst from garrosh' melee attacks with BS.
    Well, considering that the melee damage on 10-man HC Garrosh is completely predictable (and an outright joke), the fact that AMS neither scales with vengeance (at least AFAIK) nor is percentage-based DR, that Blood DK DPS barely keeps up with prot paladins, AND that they bring no raid CD or any sort of raid utility really, I feel sorta warranted saying they're meh for Garrosh. They do less DPS than warriors and they're less self-sufficient than paladins.

    I mean, could they be worse? Sure, they could be Monks. No tank in the current tier is ever going to be as good at solo-tanking a fight as prot paladins, though - maybe outside of some bogus 1-tank, kill Ka'roz early and break Amber with his buff Paragons deal, where obviously you'd want a monk tank and a paladin in the raid to HoP them. Not that anyone is crazy enough to try it, which is a shame.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    This is so far from being correct that it hurts. I suppose it may be predicated on the outdated assumption that Brewmasters outDPS any other tank class (they don't), or predicated on the assumption that only the Monk can soak Annihilates (not the case). Except for 3 significant outliers (who are still behind the top paladin parses), Monks on 10-man HC are, on average, 50-100k behind paladins of equivalent rank.
    Top parses have nothing to do with which do stronger DPS for the average player/guild. I have always seen Brewmasters as much stronger than Paladins without any vengeance abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Well, considering that the melee damage on 10-man HC Garrosh is completely predictable (and an outright joke), the fact that AMS neither scales with vengeance (at least AFAIK) nor is percentage-based DR, that Blood DK DPS barely keeps up with prot paladins, AND that they bring no raid CD or any sort of raid utility really, I feel sorta warranted saying they're meh for Garrosh. They do less DPS than warriors and they're less self-sufficient than paladins.

    I mean, could they be worse? Sure, they could be Monks. No tank in the current tier is ever going to be as good at solo-tanking a fight as prot paladins, though - maybe outside of some bogus 1-tank, kill Ka'roz early and break Amber with his buff Paragons deal, where obviously you'd want a monk tank and a paladin in the raid to HoP them. Not that anyone is crazy enough to try it, which is a shame.
    Melee damage being predictable means nothing. Blood Shield scales amazingly with incoming damage taken so if you time Death Strikes properly you are pretty much immune to melee damage which means the only damage you are taking is the even more predictable DoT damage.

    AMZ is a great CD for Garrosh too, I don't know what you're talking about with DKs not having a raid CD.

    Paladins are good for solo tanking Garrosh but that's about all they do, they tank well. They are useful to a raid group doing progression because of their mitigation and raid CD however just about every other tank will obliterate Paladins on damage done, which is half of the challenge of new groups coming to the fight and why you decide to solo tank in the first place.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2014-06-14 at 11:51 PM.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    DKs are just amazing for Garrosh in my opinion, it's very much same damage style as Juggernaut, your healers should really only be worried about healing the magic damage that you take while Blood Shield takes care of physical hits. Plus AMS is the best CD in the game.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Top parses have nothing to do with which do stronger DPS for the average player/guild. I have always seen Brewmasters as much stronger than Paladins without any vengeance abuse.
    Apologies for the double'ish post, but this post is yet another bunch of nonsense. First of all, the sample pool on Heroic Garrosh is so small that the top 200 parses alone account for a significant amount of the total data set rather than an infinitesimal tripe like they usually would - i.e., the "top parse fallacy" does not apply as one would normally expect. When less than 1000 guilds total have killed a boss, the top 200 parses are more than representative enough to draw solid conclusions.

    Secondly, contending that "monks are stronger without vengeance abuse" may perhaps be true in a vacuum, but shoots so far off the mark in this case I believe it may have injured innocent bystanders. The entire point of solo-tanking Garrosh is vengeance abuse. You choose your solo-tank for this fight specifically around which class abuses vengeance the best, and Monk is simply not the appropriate choice for this particular group nor any other particular group that wishes to solo-tank Heroic Garrosh.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Secondly, contending that "monks are stronger without vengeance abuse" may perhaps be true in a vacuum, but shoots so far off the mark in this case I believe it may have injured innocent bystanders. The entire point of solo-tanking Garrosh is vengeance abuse. You choose your solo-tank for this fight specifically around which class abuses vengeance the best, and Monk is simply not the appropriate choice for this particular group nor any other particular group that wishes to solo-tank Heroic Garrosh.
    Vengeance abuse and simply gaining more vengeance from solo tanking are completely different things I hope you understand this.

  14. #14
    Mechagnome PraisetheSun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Vengeance abuse and simply gaining more vengeance from solo tanking are completely different things I hope you understand this.
    The difference on Heroic Garrosh is purely one of semantics. You can continue to defend your claim that Monk is somehow the best choice for this fight as much as you want, but whether one stands in Annihilate or not, the fact of the matter inarguably remains that not only is Monk AM not well suited to Garrosh due to the damage pattern; their damage is simply outscaled by every other tank at the level of vengeance solo-tanking provides, and suggesting otherwise suggests willful ignorance.

  15. #15
    Paladin Eternal Flame + High Vengence = a winning combination for solo tanking especially with how much that debuff starts to tick for after about 7 stacks. Its a similar situation as thok really, get high vengence and use EF. Monks aren't bad per say (I solo tanked our only 10m H kill and then we jumped to 25m) but honestly I'd say most other tanks can probably handle it better because the damage that's threatening is the debuff damage, not the melee swings. If you're intent on going forward with your monk tank I can offer you some advice that might help you along since I had over 400 attempts working some things out (took us like 515 pulls to kill Garrosh, yay roster changes!). My ilvl when we killed it was 577 (raid ilvl average was about 576.9)

    I'll start with the log from our kill http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done

    First things first, glyph guard.

    For phase 1 when we have everyone stacked to take the first desecrate I stun the adds as soon as it goes down and pop Avert Harm. Everything dies quickly enough so that Avert Harm doesn't get you killed. The next point in P1 is the second wave of adds. Tanking them close to the center, we had a dk grip them on top of me to be rooted but since you don't have a dk any sort of root will help/melee in with you. As soon as Hellscream's warsong goes out have a 5 second stun go out and at the end of that have your disc priest put pain suppression on you. You should phase it around here.

    Intermission 1: I used Xuen here to help kill the middle pack and back left pack, varies on strategy.
    For annhilates I used
    Zen Med on 1,2, and 3
    Diffuse Magic on 4 and 5
    Fortifying Brew + Guard for 6 and 7
    Ret Paladin Hand of Sacrifice for 8 and 9.

    Your cloak *shouldn't* proc. If it does don't risk it anymore because you dying = losing all that vengence as well as possible room for bad things.

    P2 as a general rule you want to pop your Guard during the MCs or shortly after them. If both your healers are MC'ed then you'll want to pop it for sure because the damage that kills you is the debuff, not melee swings. First whirling, you don't really need any extra cooldown, the raid cooldown + personal healing from Expel Harm and GotOx spheres should keep you through, abuse your spheres.
    The second round is more dangerous. You'll get to 6 or 7 stacks before the MCs. Here you'll probably want to Guard when the MCs go out. If you don't you'll want to shortly after, this will buy you some breathing room. If your druid symbiosised you, use the small cooldown towards the end as well as the pally sac if its available. You're going to need a lot of healing here and/or an external/raid cooldown to help you survive. Second WC use Diffuse magic and its harmless.
    Third round shouldn't be bad. Same rule for Guard and at the end I used Avert Harm + Pain Suppression to reduce the damage and survive the damage from WC and the debuff. You should push, if you get the second transition you may as well two tank.

    P3 same rules mostly apply as P2. The difference is you now have EWC and the exploding debuff (only explodes during EWC and transition). First EWC use Diffuse magic about 2 seconds in, kill the add that spawns on top of you. Any self healing you do will probably grab an add or two so be aware. If one does become empowered you can stun it. Non-empowered adds you should be close to one shotting with keg smash. Help break any MCs in the second round because you'll have a pretty decent chunk of vengence to help. You have to push before the second EWC, when you do use Zen Med to survive the explosion, raid should use defensive raid cooldowns to reduce the damage (it hits really hard).

    P4 is a cakewalk. There's no more debuff so its only melee swings. He actually still hits pretty fricken hard, but its all melee. Use and abuse your GotOx orbs as well as expel harm and just follow what your raid leader sets up for positioning and moving Garrosh. Don't be afraid to use guard to increase your self healing. Its basically a 30 second self healing buff for 2 chi and you'll have more than enough shuffle to afford this without a loss in uptime. This is actually the part where I say you should NOT be the one solo tanking garrosh because monks are incredibly good at kiting the iron stars. If I could've switched places with my co-tank who went frost right here I would've done so in a heartbeat. We had an elemental shaman kite instead (lol).

    That's a rather basic breakdown phase by phase. If you have any other questions feel free to ask!

    Oh and here's the youtube vid pulled directly from my stream.
    Last edited by Leblue; 2014-06-15 at 11:12 AM.


    Thanks Shyama for the awesome Signature

  16. #16
    Let's have a look at some example numbers for the different tank classes
    I compared each tank top log on warcraftlogs (wol doesn't really track hc garrosh). I looked at the dps of the class and the dmg they take minus the amount they heal/absorb, so the dmg which will still need to be healed by healers basically.
    warrior: 684,8k dps, 96495 dtps-hps
    druid: 668k dps, 94684 dtps-hps
    pala: 625k, 77565 dtps-hps
    dk: 552k dps, 70566 dtps-hps
    monk: 547k dps, 98643 dtps-hps
    However this doesn't reflect the reality for a garrosh first kill from a guild. Some of them are wearing the dmg cloak and meta, some just the cloak. If you subtract these numbers because I think you can safely assume that in said scenario the tank would wear the tank meta and the tank cloak then you get:

    warrior: 650,4k dps
    druid 540,7k dps
    pala: 556,6k dps
    dk: 535,6k dps
    monk: 508,6k dps

    the dtps-hps part would be lower for the pala and the druid as those two logs were using the dmg meta. Furthermore the pala in question was using rather large amounts of crit on his gear in order to do dmg...in a realistic scenario the dps and the dmg he takes would be lower.

    So basically the tanks are relativly close to each other except for the warrior. The pala and dk shine when it comes to how much healing they need.

    To awnser the question...if you have the same gear and skill on both the monk and the paladin take the paladin...not because of his superior dmg on that fight, but simply because he takes much less heal and has the added raid utility. A dk would be about just as good (amz is very useful during this encounter for star dmg annihilate and p4 iron star impact)

    But please keep in mind that these numbers are just one tiny example and don't represent an across the board comparison. Each class is more than capable to tank hc garrosh solo.

  17. #17
    I'm going to give my opinion based on our ~5 months experience, not a rigorous numerical analysis, so you can take it or leave it depending on what you think is valuable. After trying many tanking comps, we now use a prot paladin and we are able to literally 9 man the fight with 1 tank/1 heal because of the incredible self healing that eternal flame does at high vengeance coupled with the strength of divine protection for surviving the whirls with high stacks of Gripping Despair. The paladin does 71% as much healing as our 1 healer... or roughly 40% of the TOTAL healing. There's no other class that can match that. Our prot paladin still handily out damages everyone else by a margin of ~100k.

    Really though, if you're going to 2 heal, any tank can solo tank it. At that point, you might consider the other benefits. Warriors, monks, DKs bring good control of the Phase 1 Warbringers (which are a bigger pain with only one tank). Paladins, monks, warriors bring AOE stuns and bears bring amazing damage with Berzerk for Intermission 1(which I think is still the hardest part of the whole fight). DKs sort of just suck at Intermission 1, which is why we don't use one anymore. Paladins and warriors bring strong raid cooldowns as well as an external you can throw on someone who misses a Courage buff during the intermission to keep them alive. It really depends what your raid is struggling with. If you're looking for raw damage, remember that amazing paladin self healing means your disc can spend more time DPS'ing, so that might offset any difference in actual DPS between a paladin tank and others.

    @OP: I recommend prot paladin, but a monk will probably work fine if that's what your tank would rather play. If your bear can play a lock, that will certainly be a good idea. Warlocks are great at Garrosh.
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