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  1. #601
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malzra View Post
    They do that though and they have 9 other classes knocking at the door for THEIR fourth spec. Not to mention pissing off demo locks who like having those things and don't want to play melee. And the waste of giving them a forth DPS spec.
    Not if you do it they way they're doing it with Prot Warriors, MW Monks, and Shadow Priests. Make this melee spec a sub spec of Demonology. To access it, you have to use the stance toggle. So those Demonology locks who want to keep being ranged, they can be ranged. Those locks who want to try melee can now do melee. No different than MWs and Prot Warriors.

    Make it part of the spec, or a talent. That way its not a true 4th spec, merely another aspect of Demo gameplay.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Not if you do it they way they're doing it with Prot Warriors, MW Monks, and Shadow Priests. Make this melee spec a sub spec of Demonology. To access it, you have to use the stance toggle. So those Demonology locks who want to keep being ranged, they can be ranged. Those locks who want to try melee can now do melee. No different than MWs and Prot Warriors.
    You mean give them the very reason they separated Feral and Guardian Druid into two specs? Smart.

  3. #603
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Which would be no different than any class healing using offensive spells. Priests can do this. Being resistant to Charm, Fear and Sleep effects isn't anything but a gameplay mechanic that can be given to any class (given there is balance reason to). Being undead is very much a DK theme, but there is no unique gameplay that couldn't be compared or applied to any other class concept.
    You mean like the immunity to fear, charm, or sleep effects, and being healed by shadow magic you just mentioned?

    You could say we have no class that repairs mechanical minions but it's not a reason we need a new class. It's just a nice to have, like playing instruments or turning into a fire breathing dragon.
    Clearly there are more reasons to implement a technology class than to just repair robots. I mentioned those reasons earlier.

    And the game never suffered for the lack of a Monk class. We didn't need a class that punched and kicked. We didn't need a class that could heal through punches. We didn't need a class that used Eastern themes or Chi. The Monk is very much a nice to have.
    So you jumped from Monks not offering anything new gameplay wise, to them not being a required class addition? Are you conceding that Monks DO offer a unique gameplay experience that the other 10 classes cant emulate?

    If Death Knight was the first and only added class, I don't think anyone would be up in arms about it. It would seem a bit lacking in diversity, but look at the situation now regarding new classes - there's a sizable amount of vocal cry for no new classes for the sake of game balance.
    A very vocal minority. There's also a very vocal minority that wants WoW to revert to TBC mode because they believe that the game changes since 2008 have ruined the game. Should we take their opinion seriously as well?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You mean give them the very reason they separated Feral and Guardian Druid into two specs? Smart.
    Again, they're doing it for other classes in WoD. Why not Warlocks?

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you jumped from Monks not offering anything new gameplay wise, to them not being a required class addition? Are you conceding that Monks DO offer a unique gameplay experience that the other 10 classes cant emulate?
    No, I was making a point that we don't need any new classes at all. I was using your own examples of 'unique' gameplay, because I have to make things understandable to you. Just like I would have to use your definitions of Tinker and Engineer as separate entities when speaking to you, lest you come out of the woodwork to 'correct' me.

    A very vocal minority. There's also a very vocal minority that wants WoW to revert to TBC mode because they believe that the game changes since 2008 have ruined the game. Should we take their opinion seriously as well?
    It works both ways, doesn't it? There IS a 'vocal minority' that wants TBC servers back. If there were a functional way to incorporate it into WoW without splitting the community, then I'm sure they would consider it.

    As for a new class, it fits in with their design goals of moving forward and expanding the World of Warcraft. It's almost inevitable that we would get one in the future, even if we don't need it to keep the game interesting. The point is we don't need a new Class any more than we need new Races, but we will still get it because that's what keeps people invested in the long run.

    Again, they're doing it for other classes in WoD. Why not Warlocks?
    Then why don't Warlocks have their melee spec yet? Like you said, they're already doing it for other classes in WoD, and for the past 10 years they've been folding Demon Hunter into Warlock; surely there must be a reason Warlocks are being omitted from this type of design. Maybe the answer is as simple as Warlocks should remain as Spellcasters.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-20 at 12:30 AM.

  5. #605
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    No, I was making a point that we don't need any new classes at all. I was using your own examples of 'unique' gameplay, because I have to make things understandable to you. Just like I would have to use your definitions of Tinker and Engineer as separate entities when speaking to you, lest you come out of the woodwork to 'correct' me.
    "Need" was never the point of conversation though. The point was that Blizzard only brings classes into the game that brings unique themes and gameplay opportunities, and have a connection to the RTS game. Demon Hunters are eliminated from contention for the first reason. Bards are eliminated from contention for the second reason.

    It works both ways, doesn't it? There IS a 'vocal minority' that wants TBC servers back. If there were a functional way to incorporate it into WoW without splitting the community, then I'm sure they would consider it.
    I wouldn't hold my breath.

    As for a new class, it fits in with their design goals of moving forward and expanding the World of Warcraft. It's almost inevitable that we would get one in the future, even if we don't need it to keep the game interesting. The point is we don't need a new Class any more than we need new Races, but we will still get it because that's what keeps people invested in the long run.
    Again, "need" was never the point of this discussion. Blizzard determines need. Blizzard deemed that we needed DKs and Monks, so we got DKs and Monks.

    Then why don't Warlocks have their melee spec yet? Like you said, they're already doing it for other classes in WoD, and for the past 10 years they've been folding Demon Hunter into Warlock; surely there must be a reason Warlocks are being omitted from this type of design. Maybe the answer is as simple as Warlocks should remain as Spellcasters.
    More than likely Blizzard doesn't view the Warlock melee component as necessary because they don't view the DH as necessary. When they do, that's more than likely the direction they'll take (if they ever do). Frankly, the possibility of a DH class died when TBC was in the planning stages. Blizzard has been putting nails in the coffin ever since.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, "need" was never the point of this discussion. Blizzard determines need. Blizzard deemed that we needed DKs and Monks, so we got DKs and Monks.
    Yes, and Blizzard will be the one who determines whether we 'need' Demon Hunters, Tinkers, Bards or any other known concept. Perhaps they will surprise us with something completely out of left field, like a 'Sea Lord' to compliment the inclusion of a Naga race.

    More than likely Blizzard doesn't view the Warlock melee component as necessary because they don't view the DH as necessary. When they do, that's more than likely the direction they'll take (if they ever do). Frankly, the possibility of a DH class died when TBC was in the planning stages. Blizzard has been putting nails in the coffin ever since.
    Could very well be the case. If that is true, then we will never see a playable Demon Hunter. It is even less likely that they would disrupt what they currently have with the Warlock by folding in an autonomous identity. Why would they need Demon Hunters when a melee Warlock could easily exist as a melee Warlock? It would be like referring to Druids as Priestesses of the Moon to make sense out of Starfall, then suggesting Druids use bows to perpetuate the fallacy.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-20 at 01:17 AM.

  7. #607
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Yes, and Blizzard will be the one who determines whether we 'need' Demon Hunters, Tinkers, Bards or any other known concept. Perhaps they will surprise us with something completely out of left field, like a 'Sea Lord' to compliment the inclusion of a Naga race.
    Doubtful since water magic is covered on both sides (combative and restorative) by Shaman and Mages. Lightning is covered by Shaman, and to a far lesser extent Monks. And finally Hunters are getting Frost Arrows in WoD.

    Blizzard isn't going to create a class that is merely the combination of existing classes.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-06-20 at 01:33 AM.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Doubtful since water magic is covered on both sides (combative and restorative) by Shaman and Mages. Lightning is covered by Shaman, and to a far lesser extent Monks. And finally Hunters are getting Frost Arrows in WoD.

    Blizzard isn't going to create a class that is merely the combination of existing classes.

    schools of magic are not restricted to 1 class or just 2.
    Shaman, mages, and dks all have frost magic.
    dk, priests, and warlocks all have shadow.
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  9. #609
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    schools of magic are not restricted to 1 class or just 2.
    Shaman, mages, and dks all have frost magic.
    dk, priests, and warlocks all have shadow.
    Except the problem is that any avenue for such a class to be unique is closed. Riptide? Taken by Shaman. Water Elemental? Taken by Mages. Telluric Currents? Again taken by Shaman. Water Jet? Mages again. Mana Tide? Hello Shaman. Mana Shield? Hey its Mages again! Forked Lightning? Too similar to Chain Lightning. Frost Arrows? Hunters already have it. Water Shield? Shaman.

    Any class using water or a sea thematic simply causes too much overlap with existing classes.

    If its any consolation, the same applies to Shadow Magic. There's just nothing else you can do with it without encroaching on the territory of Rogues, Shadow Priests, Death Knights, and Warlocks.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Any class using water or a sea thematic simply causes too much overlap with existing classes.
    You could have said this before the Monk class and it would have been just as true. Yet using Mists to heal and shooting Lightning is still a theme that Monks use. Sure, they have a greater Martial Arts theme to fall back on, but it nonetheless uses the exact same thematic properties which you are using to dispute any other future class from even *touching* upon.

    If your case doesn't affect the Monk, then it won't affect any new class.

    If its any consolation, the same applies to Shadow Magic. There's just nothing else you can do with it without encroaching on the territory of Rogues, Shadow Priests, Death Knights, and Warlocks.
    Sure there is. Hunters got Black Arrow well after the inclusion of Death Knights. Even Old Gods use Shadow, and we have nothing representing their magic at all.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-20 at 02:32 AM.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except the problem is that any avenue for such a class to be unique is closed. Riptide? Taken by Shaman. Water Elemental? Taken by Mages. Telluric Currents? Again taken by Shaman. Water Jet? Mages again. Mana Tide? Hello Shaman. Mana Shield? Hey its Mages again! Forked Lightning? Too similar to Chain Lightning. Frost Arrows? Hunters already have it. Water Shield? Shaman.

    Any class using water or a sea thematic simply causes too much overlap with existing classes.

    If its any consolation, the same applies to Shadow Magic. There's just nothing else you can do with it without encroaching on the territory of Rogues, Shadow Priests, Death Knights, and Warlocks.
    magic is not static new spells can always be created. schools of magic are not restricted. your seem to blindly think that nothing can be changed.
    things can change. warlocks can be reworked again easily. have you seen some of the patch notes? minor reworks to certain specs for each class along with the ability pruning. nothing is set in stone.
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  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Doubtful since water magic is covered on both sides (combative and restorative) by Shaman and Mages. Lightning is covered by Shaman, and to a far lesser extent Monks. And finally Hunters are getting Frost Arrows in WoD.

    Blizzard isn't going to create a class that is merely the combination of existing classes.
    And you completely missed his point, on that one.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    schools of magic are not restricted to 1 class or just 2.
    Shaman, mages, and dks all have frost magic.
    dk, priests, and warlocks all have shadow.
    Yeah I don't expect to see a sea lord, but consider fire mages and destro locks. Two different kits and yet they both rely heavily on fire magic. Plus ele shamans have a couple fiery spells, though the spec doesn't revolve around fire. I could see an offensive water based spell depending on how it was done. If fire mage and destro lock can both use a lot of fire, I don't see frost and water being too big of an overlap as long as the new class has its own flair to it.

    That said while I don't expect to see a sea lord, they could always surprise us with something new.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  14. #614
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You could have said this before the Monk class and it would have been just as true. Yet using Mists to heal and shooting Lightning is still a theme that Monks use. Sure, they have a greater Martial Arts theme to fall back on, but it nonetheless uses the exact same thematic properties which you are using to dispute any other future class from even *touching* upon.
    Actually its not. The theme of the Mistweaver is as follows;

    A healer who mixes herbal medicine with Pandaren Martial Arts.
    Also the "mist" thematic comes from the mists that shroud Pandaria. Also the Mistweaver celestial is a dragon, and his breath is a healing mist. That's a far different theme than the ocean-themed abilities of Restoration Shaman.

    If your case doesn't affect the Monk, then it won't affect any new class.
    You only think it affects the Monk because you don't understand class design.

    Sure there is. Hunters got Black Arrow well after the inclusion of Death Knights.
    Why would DKs get anything arrow-based?

    Even Old Gods use Shadow, and we have nothing representing their magic at all.
    Shadow Priests and Warlocks both use variations of their type of shadow magic. The Shadow Priest talent "Mindbender" comes from the type of shadow magic used by the old gods.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Malzra View Post
    Yeah I don't expect to see a sea lord, but consider fire mages and destro locks. Two different kits and yet they both rely heavily on fire magic. Plus ele shamans have a couple fiery spells, though the spec doesn't revolve around fire. I could see an offensive water based spell depending on how it was done. If fire mage and destro lock can both use a lot of fire, I don't see frost and water being too big of an overlap as long as the new class has its own flair to it.

    That said while I don't expect to see a sea lord, they could always surprise us with something new.
    magic is not static. its always changing new spells are always being created.
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  16. #616
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    magic is not static new spells can always be created. schools of magic are not restricted. your seem to blindly think that nothing can be changed.
    things can change. warlocks can be reworked again easily. have you seen some of the patch notes? minor reworks to certain specs for each class along with the ability pruning. nothing is set in stone.
    Again, we're not talking about individual spells, we're talking about themes and design space.

    Its pretty hard to construct a sea lord class when everything and anything unique about it is already absorbed by existing classes. The very concept this is based on (Naga Sea Witch from WC3) had Forked Lightning, Mana Shield, Frost Arrows, and Tornado. Mages got mana shield, Hunters are getting Frost Arrows, and Forked Lightning is so close to Chain Lightning that you might as well not even bother.

    Like I said, DKs and Monks entered the game with 1. a new theme that no existing class had at the time with ample design space to work through, and 2. A history in Warcraft.

    Demon Hunters lose out on 1. Bards lose out on 2.

  17. #617
    No, you're just assuming. I said Blizzard could completely surprise us with a new class to introduce the Naga. It doesn't have to be based on anything you think it has to be based on.

    You fall on the premise that no new class can use any type of magic because it's already covered by existing classes. What schools of magic haven't we used in Warcraft? It's nothing more than excuse to fall back on your ideas for a Technological class. A sad excuse.

    If this Sea Lord was themed on Arcane-based Old God magic, inspired by Azshara, then it would be something completely different from what already exists in game. It's simply an example of what is possible. The fact that you don't agree doesn't make it any less possible.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-20 at 03:23 AM.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Also the "mist" thematic comes from the mists that shroud Pandaria. Also the Mistweaver celestial is a dragon, and his breath is a healing mist. That's a far different theme than the ocean-themed abilities of Restoration Shaman.
    Actually, the Healing Celestial is the Red Crane. I always scratched my head why the Mistweaver has a Jade Dragon statue when it's the Red Crane who's about healing.

  19. #619
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    No, you're just assuming. I said Blizzard could completely surprise us with a new class to introduce the Naga. It doesn't have to be based on anything you think it has to be based on.
    My argument has always been that the roots of every WoW class comes from the RTS. It is doubtful that Blizzard would deviate from that precedent.

    You fall on the premise that no new class can use any type of magic because it's already covered by existing classes. What schools of magic haven't we used in Warcraft? It's nothing more than excuse to fall back on your ideas for a Technological class. A sad excuse.
    Like I said, just about every form of magic is covered in WoW. I honestly can't think of any magic that isn't present in at least one of the existing classes. Technology just happens to be the only theme absent from the existing classes, yet is a major presence throughout the game world. If anything, Blizzard has shown that they want the classes to be as different as possible. You don't get much more different than a technology class.

    If this Sea Lord was themed on Arcane-based Old God magic, inspired by Azshara, then it would be something completely different from what already exists in game. It's simply an example of what is possible. The fact that you don't agree doesn't make it any less possible.
    How would it be "completely different" than anything that currently exists in the game? Mages and Druids only have 1 spec each that uses Arcane, and in the case of Druid, its half of one spec. Now you're talking about an entire three specs dedicated to Arcane magic? Yeah, that makes sense.

    Would this class be tanking or healing with Arcane magic? How exactly with this form of Arcane differ from Mage version of Arcane? Is it just different because its "evil"?

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How would it be "completely different" than anything that currently exists in the game? Mages and Druids only have 1 spec each that uses Arcane, and in the case of Druid, its half of one spec. Now you're talking about an entire three specs dedicated to Arcane magic? Yeah, that makes sense.

    Would this class be tanking or healing with Arcane magic? How exactly with this form of Arcane differ from Mage version of Arcane? Is it just different because its "evil"?
    Who said there would be 3 specs dedicated to that one school of magic? There are types of Arcane magic left untapped by Mages and Druids. There doesn't have to be any 'evil' connotations to it's use, but if you get technical, all types of Arcane magic is corrupting anyways.

    Anti Magic is also another type of Arcane magic that still exists. Spellbreakers, Faerie Dragons and Obsidian Destroyers all utilized this in Warcraft 3.

    All the Dragonflights also use variations of existing spell schools that are untapped by existing classes.

    And to stay topical, Bards could have songs that are tied to existing spell schools; just as 'Mind Control' is considered Shadow.

    There's plenty of magic left untapped by any of the existing classes. Technology is only one of many themes left explorable.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-20 at 04:27 AM.

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