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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I agree somewhat; The difference is that Bards would need a basis in Warcraft III as well. Brewmasters always had a chance to be introduced into WoW through the hints that Chen existed, such as Chen's missing keg in the Barrens; Monks, on the other hand, didn't have any other existance. It was only through the introduction of the Brewmaster that Monks could be formed. Bards have the Dwarven fiddler, but they don't have a Warcraft III existance; Bards could potentially exist, and have a larger existance than Monks.

    But Bards are still a long shot if you ask me.
    If you dont' require the name bard to be attatched. Here's a fellow who uses music to create a magic like effect who happens to appear in warcraft 3.



    Now, I'm not saying bards are a sure thing, I just don't feel that bards are as far out there as some others seem to.
    now taking suggestions for a new cartoon signature.

  2. #802
    If you think about it, Blizzard has never had a Bard in any of it's games. Not in Diablo, or any of the Warcraft games. Not even in the tabletop RPG. I don't think they like the concept of the Bard too much.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I never claimed he is a bard. I said he is the closest thing to a bard in WoW!! He's a lore keeper, and he sings ballads about heroes!!
    NONE OF WHICH DO ANYTHING. He's not a proof of concept for a class when all he does is sing. Again, if singing is the only thing that is necessary for a bard, then all classes are bards because everyone can sing. He is not even CLOSE to a bard. He's a lorekeeper, as you said yourself, and that's ALL he is. He's not CLOSE to anything else; He's a lorekeeper. End of story.

    So, there's no difference, to you, between psyonic and physical effects? 'Psyonic' effects affect the mind. And 'psyonic' is not shadow-based magic. It has no element to it. So it could be a cold spell, or fire spell, or holy spell, or shadow spell...
    Again; Proof that effects on the mind are different than effects on the brain in WoW.

    The mind is a theoretical concept. In many fantasy games, they do not make mind effects different from brain effects. Assaulting someone's brain with cold (A physical effect) would most certainly interrupt spellcasting, and possibly not cause permanent brain damage depending on the intensity; Causing damage to someone's brain (a la Mind blast) would at the very least cause some kind of permanent damage. However, you cannot target a theoretical concept with cold as it's not tangible, similar to being unable to freeze a soul. You cannot take away heat from a non-tangible object. You can, however, cause damage to a non-tangible object.

    Which doesn't prove there are not adventurer storytellers. Lorewalker Cho being a, as you put it, 'pacifist', does not mean other storytellers would not feel the thirst for adventure. After all, adventures can make for great stories.
    And those stories STILL DON'T DO ANYTHING. There is no reason to believe a bard could be a storyteller in WoW. The only form of damaging spells a Bard would have in WoW are songs; The Dwarven Fiddler. Stories have yet to be shown to have any magical properties whatsoever. Therefore, Lorewalkers are not examples of bards.

    Lorewalkers are lore keepers and sing. They travel around. And there are spells that are cast by singing. Go read the definition of "proof of concept" before trying to say anything again, please.
    My characters know lore and sing. They travel around. And there are spells that are cast by singing. My characters, ergo, are bards. Therefore, no reason for bards to exist; They already do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    There was no lore stating Forsaken Priests in Vanilla were all Shadow, or that they could not use Holy magic. Again, that is headcanon used to explain what was not being officially stated. Absence of lore is not evidence of the contrary, just like we can't say 'Night Elves can't be Mages', which would have been true in Vanilla just as well.
    Would not have been true in Vanilla. Night Elves have been mages since the explosion of the Well of Eternity, which we have known of for a very long time.

    And, just as you insist that there is an absense of lore explaining how Forsaken Priests would not wield the Light, there is an absense of lore explaining why Forsaken Priests COULD wield the Light. You claim I only look at what we already know, yet you too fall into this situation often. We know NOW that Forsaken Priests can wield the light (at great expense to themselves), but there is no lore stating they always could.

    Shadow is not a faith separate from the Light, unless you are talking about an entirely different faith altogether. Paladins derive from the same source as every Priest of the same race. It's not a case of understanding, it's a case of what words you're using and confusing the meaning with your intent.

    I can understand that you mean that Priests use Shadow magic which is beyond what Paladins do, but that's not 'FAITH'.
    The Cult of Forgotten Shadow is largely based out of Deathknell and the warrior quarter in Undercity. Priests of the Forgotten Shadow believe that the faiths they held in life have failed them, and so they instead rely on the power and teachings of the Shadow.
    http://wowpedia.org/Forsaken#Faith

    Which we should establish that there is no exclusivity for Warlocks in this regard. There is a common theme of using Fel magic. It is still highly plausible and likely for a Demon Hunter class to use Arcane and Fel magic differently than a Warlock (who doesn't actually use Arcane).
    There IS exclusivity for Warlocks in this regard. Fel magic is the magic of Demons. Warlocks cover Fel magic, just as Mages cover Arcane magic, and Druids cover Nature magic, and Shamans cover Elemental magic, and Death Knights cover Undead magic.

    So what did you prove by stating this? You're just reinforcing the benefits of having a Demon Hunter, whose identity would be at its core a hunter-of-demons. It doesn't limit them to this, so why is it a problem again?
    Warlocks are hunters-of-demons.

    No, it's not undeniable. That's the issue we're dealing with right now.

    The Priest had Vampiric themes, Death magic and even Diseases. That's a strong case to give them a full-on Necromancy theme. Even then, it is not undeniable that Death Knights or Necromancers be folded into a Priest class. Again, you're only making a case against Death Knights and Monks by using your examples. Brewmasters having Storm Earth and Fire would get them absorbed into Shamans if we were using your example.
    Vampiric =/= death magic. Shadow Word: Death = Shadow magic; Not death magic. One disease =/= full-on Necromancy.

    Storm, Earth and Fire was never Elemental. It's name means nothing, and continues to mean nothing even now.

    The Demon Hunter is also shared by the Rogue and Priest. Dreadlord by the Death Knight and Druid (Hibernate). It doesn't help your case that you are trying to prove Warlocks have dominion over the DH or Dreadlord class in all themes and aspects. The fact remains, if there is enough plausibility to build a separate identity out of the DH (ie. Slayer based on Exotic fighting style and Spellbreaking, and a DH spec) then it could well be possible and likely to happen.
    I never claimed they had dominion of them, I said they were absorbed into the class. They can be absorbed into many classes at once. HOWEVER, there is nothing left of the Demon Hunter to absorb.

    And we knew enough of the Death Knights to tell us they are eternal champions of the Scourge, and followers of the Lich King. There was NO lore that would have hinted that they could be come playable by the Alliance and Horde, which exactly mirrors the current Demon Hunter situation. If DK's could have become playable, then so can DH.
    Funny enough we have always had proof that the Undead can break away from the Lich King's control. So there was ALWAYS the chance that Death Knights could be introduced.

    We have NO PROOF that Demon Hunters are different than Warlocks, and QUITE A LOT of proof that they overlap with Warlocks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hrugner View Post
    If you dont' require the name bard to be attatched. Here's a fellow who uses music to create a magic like effect who happens to appear in warcraft 3.



    Now, I'm not saying bards are a sure thing, I just don't feel that bards are as far out there as some others seem to.
    I'd actually forgotten about that unit. It's a nice starting point, but definitely needs work; I recall that unit being unable to attack.

    But you're right, and I concede that Bards are definitely more likely than some other ideas out there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    NONE OF WHICH DO ANYTHING. He's not a proof of concept for a class when all he does is sing. Again, if singing is the only thing that is necessary for a bard, then all classes are bards because everyone can sing. He is not even CLOSE to a bard. He's a lorekeeper, as you said yourself, and that's ALL he is. He's not CLOSE to anything else; He's a lorekeeper. End of story.
    The underlined part shows how little you know of bards. Lorewalker Cho is practically the definition of a bard. Or are you going to tell me that a spellcaster who locks himself in a tower to learn as much magic as he can, instead of going adventuring, is not a mage? That a spellcaster that summons demons and wields shadow magic is not a warlock because he doesn't go adventuring? Or that a sword-fighter that never saw combat outside of simple sparrings within Stormwind's city walls is not a warrior? Lorewalker Cho is a bard, in the definition of the word.

    Again; Proof that effects on the mind are different than effects on the brain in WoW.
    Ok, here's your 'brain freeze' and your 'mind freeze' Different effects for different parts.

    You cannot take away heat from a non-tangible object.
    Real physics and chemistry would like to have a word with you. You can, for example, take heat from gasses.

    And those stories STILL DON'T DO ANYTHING. There is no reason to believe a bard could be a storyteller in WoW.
    Except, y'know, embodying everything a bard is, right. Storytellers, travelers, keepers of lore...

    My characters know lore and sing. They travel around. And there are spells that are cast by singing. My characters, ergo, are bards. Therefore, no reason for bards to exist; They already do.
    Nice strawman. Your character may know some lore and know a bit how to sing, but your character does not specialize in those, now does it?

    Vampiric =/= death magic. Shadow Word: Death = Shadow magic; Not death magic. One disease =/= full-on Necromancy.
    Vampiric is death magic. And one diseases + 2 vampire spells means that the Shadow Priest does dabble quite well in necromancy.

    We have NO PROOF that Demon Hunters are different than Warlocks, and QUITE A LOT of proof that they overlap with Warlocks.
    Other than them being melee, agile fighters, dual-wield, are mostly night elves, and may wear leather or mail armor?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I'd actually forgotten about that unit. It's a nice starting point, but definitely needs work; I recall that unit being unable to attack.
    It does attack. It throws throwing axes. Read the information provided, man. Read it.

  5. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by BedlamBros View Post
    If you think about it, Blizzard has never had a Bard in any of it's games. Not in Diablo, or any of the Warcraft games. Not even in the tabletop RPG. I don't think they like the concept of the Bard too much.
    Good point.

    There were Monks and DKs in other Blizzard games. I have yet to see a Bard class anywhere in Blizzard's games.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by BedlamBros View Post
    If you think about it, Blizzard has never had a Bard in any of it's games. Not in Diablo, or any of the Warcraft games. Not even in the tabletop RPG. I don't think they like the concept of the Bard too much.
    You sure about that? Here's two of them: Hearthsinger Forresten (1, 2, WoWPedia) and Camerick Jongleur (WoWPedia)

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The underlined part shows how little you know of bards. Lorewalker Cho is practically the definition of a bard. Or are you going to tell me that a spellcaster who locks himself in a tower to learn as much magic as he can, instead of going adventuring, is not a mage? That a spellcaster that summons demons and wields shadow magic is not a warlock because he doesn't go adventuring? Or that a sword-fighter that never saw combat outside of simple sparrings within Stormwind's city walls is not a warrior? Lorewalker Cho is a bard, in the definition of the word.
    Nice strawman. Lorewalker Cho may know a bit how to sing, but Lorewalker Cho does not specialize in that, now does he?
    Ok, here's your 'brain freeze' and your 'mind freeze' Different effects for different parts.
    Like I said; Depending on the intensity it can have different effects as well. You'll notice that many spells have names that do not explain their effects; Brain Freeze happens to be one of them. Just like Soul Reaper does not explain how it affects the target, therefore it cannot be determined whether it affects the Soul.

    Real physics and chemistry would like to have a word with you. You can, for example, take heat from gasses.
    tan·gi·ble
    adjective
    1.
    perceptible by touch.

    Gases can be perceptible by touch, depending on their density.

    Except, y'know, embodying everything a bard is, right. Storytellers, travelers, keepers of lore...
    And again, strawman. Because Bards don't exist, we don't have a definition for them in WoW. You can cite other examples, but it still does not explain what it WOULD be in WoW.

    Vampiric is death magic. And one diseases + 2 vampire spells means that the Shadow Priest does dabble quite well in necromancy.
    Vampiric can also be considered Blood magic. Vampiric can also be considered Shadow magic. Assuming it is death magic when it is in the SHADOW spec is silly.

    Other than them being melee, agile fighters, dual-wield, are mostly night elves, and may wear leather or mail armor?
    Agile dual weild melee night elf that wears leather? Rogue.

    It does attack. It throws throwing axes. Read the information provided, man. Read it.
    Was not provided, and did not click the link as, up until a moment ago, I didn't check if it was. I spoke from memory. My memory is wrong very often. As is the memory of many others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You sure about that? Here's two of them: Hearthsinger Forresten (1, 2, WoWPedia) and Camerick Jongleur (WoWPedia)
    And the dwarf at the Twilight Highlands wedding.
    Hearthsinger is as good a basis as the undead postman, at least they spawn each run, Camerick merely has a description.
    They are evidence of a musical profession, not combative magic?
    http://wowpedia.org/Russell_Brower_%28NPC%29 however, does heal with his music and cast a frost spell from his instrument which I think is his auto-attack.
    Still not much basis, especially compared to any of the other common ideas for classes (every third gnome is a tinker, there are demon hunters down every single whirlpool in Darkshore), but Russell is the one to make most of.
    Last edited by Knough; 2014-06-24 at 04:43 PM.
    Dwarfs, gods among humanoids, giants among... gnomes...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Hitch-hikers' Guide To The Galaxy: Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz
    "Oh freddled gruntbuggly/thy micturations are to me/As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
    Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes. And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
    Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Like I said; Depending on the intensity it can have different effects as well. You'll notice that many spells have names that do not explain their effects; Brain Freeze happens to be one of them. Just like Soul Reaper does not explain how it affects the target, therefore it cannot be determined whether it affects the Soul.
    False. Effects: stunned and reduced intellect. That is explained by the brain being frozen.

    tan·gi·ble
    adjective
    1.
    perceptible by touch.

    Gases can be perceptible by touch, depending on their density.
    And can be intangible as well.

    And again, strawman. Because Bards don't exist, we don't have a definition for them in WoW. You can cite other examples, but it still does not explain what it WOULD be in WoW.
    You might want to check your definition for 'don't exist'.

    Vampiric can also be considered Blood magic. Vampiric can also be considered Shadow magic. Assuming it is death magic when it is in the SHADOW spec is silly.
    Except 'blood magic' does not exist, and necromantic magic is part of the 'shadow' type of magic.

    Agile dual weild melee night elf that wears leather? Rogue.
    Also monks. But that did not stop them from existing, did it?

    Was not provided, and did not click the link as, up until a moment ago, I didn't check if it was. I spoke from memory. My memory is wrong very often. As is the memory of many others.
    It was provided.

  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. Effects: stunned and reduced intellect. That is explained by the brain being frozen.
    It is not explained whatsoever. The gameplay effects are stunned and reduced intellect. The effect of the spell is... Not explained.

    And can be intangible as well.
    That some gases can be tangible proves my point. You cannot absorb heat from that which cannot be tangible; The mind is not tangible, the brain is.

    You might want to check your definition for 'don't exist'.
    Don't exist: To not exist.
    ex·ist

    verb
    1.
    have objective reality or being.
    2.
    live, especially under adverse conditions.

    Bards do not exist in WoW. Even the one example of a near-bard is not a Bard; He's a Dwarven Fiddler.

    Except 'blood magic' does not exist, and necromantic magic is part of the 'shadow' type of magic.
    Then explain how Kael'thas was a Blood Mage. And Necromantic magic is not Shadow magic; Shadow magic does not raise undead else Warlocks would be able to.

    Also monks. But that did not stop them from existing, did it?
    Because Monks had martial arts, making them unique. Demon Hunters have different weapons which just so happen to already exist and are wielded by many other classes.

    Also, Monks can wield two handers as well.

    It was provided.
    In a link which was not recognizable as a link until mentioned as such. This isn't helping either argument, I admit that I didn't check if it was a link and that I spoke from memory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    [B]Would not have been true in Vanilla. Night Elves have been mages since the explosion of the Well of Eternity, which we have known of for a very long time.
    And there was ample lore telling us in Vanilla why they would not use Magic again for very specific purposes. You could say it was undeniable for the same reasons that Forsaken Priests were all Shadow users only. In retrospect, it was all assumed. Just as we are assuming Demon Hunters are using the same methods as Warlocks, including summoning demons and use of curses/afflictions (Which would be the case if Demon Hunters get rolled into Warlocks).

    And, just as you insist that there is an absense of lore explaining how Forsaken Priests would not wield the Light, there is an absense of lore explaining why Forsaken Priests COULD wield the Light. You claim I only look at what we already know, yet you too fall into this situation often. We know NOW that Forsaken Priests can wield the light (at great expense to themselves), but there is no lore stating they always could.
    There is an absence both ways, which is why I am saying NOTHING is concrete. I am making the point that Blizzard will shape the lore around necessities where they need it, such as to explain the inclusion of classes to races (Night Elf Mages, Orc Mages, Gnome Priests) or faction-centric classes that would not have normally joined the Alliance/Horde (Death Knights joining, Monks who came out of seclusion).

    Why would you make an argument against the idea that Blizzard is capable of adding and changing their lore?

    There IS exclusivity for Warlocks in this regard. Fel magic is the magic of Demons. Warlocks cover Fel magic, just as Mages cover Arcane magic, and Druids cover Nature magic, and Shamans cover Elemental magic, and Death Knights cover Undead magic.
    In all examples of Demon Hunters we have seen, we have only seen them use Demonic magic exclusively. Prior to their class, every Priest used Holy magic exclusively. Mages in Warcraft 3 used Fire and Frost. Shamans used only lightning and earth.

    These classes were all opened up to more types of magic when they got implemented as playable classes. Mages now have Arcane magic, which is a new school specific to WoW. Shamans got rounded out using all 4 elements. Priests got Shadow to balance the Light. Even Monks got Mistweaving, a spell type that never previously existed. Death Knights, who only used Unholy in WC2 and 3, now use Frost and Blood. What reason is there that the Demon Hunter could not use OTHER types of magics just as well? The use of any other type of magic other than 'Fel' would show that they aren't the same as Warlocks.

    Simple, isn't it? If Demon Hunters were shown to use Arcane magic, they would be immediately different from Warlocks, who use Fire and Shadow. And I'm talking true Arcane, not just Arcane=Fel. Even Mana Burn was an example of a spell that could be brought back as an Arcane-based nuke, sans resource drain.

    Vampiric =/= death magic. Shadow Word: Death = Shadow magic; Not death magic. One disease =/= full-on Necromancy.
    Doesn't matter if Vampiric = Death. Both Priests and Death Knights have Vampiric magic. They both have Shadow Magic. They both use Diseases. Why do you see this as different when you're using the exact same criteria to compare DH and Warlocks? These are themes of magic, no different than your classification of 'Demon' magic that they both use.

    I'd actually forgotten about that unit. It's a nice starting point, but definitely needs work; I recall that unit being unable to attack.

    But you're right, and I concede that Bards are definitely more likely than some other ideas out there.
    I've always been using the Kodo Rider as the basis for a Bard whenever the argument comes up that there are no 'Musical' units in Warcraft. Beyond that, musical items in Warcraft 3 provided aura buffs, and there's lore for singing in combat as exemplified by Hellscream and the Warsong clan.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-24 at 05:04 PM.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Knough View Post
    And the dwarf at the Twilight Highlands wedding.
    And that one, but since everyone just keeps dismissing him for being a 'homage', then I decided to leave it be.

    Hearthsinger is as good a basis as the undead postman, at least they spawn each run, Camerick merely has a description.
    They are evidence of a musical profession, not combative magic?
    They are evidence of the bardic profession, yes. But again, we have combat spells cast by singing. Through the definition of 'proof of concept', we can ascertain that bards not only are possible, but also very much within the rules of Warcraft.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    And there was ample lore telling us in Vanilla why they would not use Magic again for very specific purposes. You could say it was undeniable for the same reasons that Forsaken Priests were all Shadow users only. In retrospect, it was all assumed. Just as we are assuming Demon Hunters are using the same methods as Warlocks, including summoning demons and use of curses/afflictions (Which would be the case if Demon Hunters get rolled into Warlocks).
    If it was ever assumed that Night Elves COULD not be Mages, then it was assumed wrong, and there was lore proving why it was wrong. Just as you are assuming Demon Hunters can use different methods as Warlocks; There is already lore proving you wrong.

    There is an absence both ways, which is why I am saying NOTHING is concrete. I am making the point that Blizzard will shape the lore around necessities where they need it, such as to explain the inclusion of classes to races (Night Elf Mages, Orc Mages, Gnome Priests) or faction-centric classes that would not have normally joined the Alliance/Horde (Death Knights joining, Monks who came out of seclusion).

    Why would you make an argument against the idea that Blizzard is capable of adding and changing their lore?
    Capable? Absolutely. But why would they change the lore for Demon Hunters when the only people who want them want the Warcraft III version? It's not the Warcraft III version if it gets changed.

    In all examples of Demon Hunters we have seen, we have only seen them use Demonic magic exclusively. Prior to their class, every Priest used Holy magic exclusively. Mages in Warcraft 3 used Fire and Frost. Shamans used only lightning and earth.

    These classes were all opened up to more types of magic when they got implemented as playable classes. Mages now have Arcane magic, which is a new school specific to WoW. Shamans got rounded out using all 4 elements. Priests got Shadow to balance the Light. Even Monks got Mistweaving, a spell type that never previously existed. Death Knights, who only used Unholy in WC2 and 3, now use Frost and Blood. What reason is there that the Demon Hunter could not use OTHER types of magics just as well? The use of any other type of magic other than 'Fel' would show that they aren't the same as Warlocks.

    Simple, isn't it? If Demon Hunters were shown to use Arcane magic, they would be immediately different from Warlocks, who use Fire and Shadow.
    Then they would overlap with Mages, who use Arcane magic already. And it would break the lore which already states that Demon Hunters use Demon magic, which is Fel.

    Simple isn't it? You cannot change the magic they use without breaking their lore. It's already established they use the power of demons against demons. If they don't use the power of demons, they aren't Demon Hunters.

    Doesn't matter if Vampiric = Death. Both Priests and Death Knights have Vampiric magic. They both have Shadow Magic. They both use Diseases. Why do you see this as different when you're using the exact same criteria to compare DH and Warlocks?
    Death Knight's Vampiric magic is actually Blood magic, which Priests don't have. Priests Vampiric magic is actually Shadow magic, which Death Knights don't have. Death Knights 'Shadow magic' are actually diseases, which Priests don't have. Priests 'Diseases' are Shadow magic, which Death Knights don't have.

    Just like Frost Death Knights and Frost Mages. The source is not the same, therefore the magic is not the same. For Demon Hunters, the source is Fel. For Warlocks, the source is Fel. They are the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It is not explained whatsoever. The gameplay effects are stunned and reduced intellect. The effect of the spell is... Not explained.
    It is.

    That some gases can be tangible proves my point. You cannot absorb heat from that which cannot be tangible; The mind is not tangible, the brain is.
    So do ghosts. Which renders your point meaningless.

    Don't exist: To not exist.
    ex·ist

    verb
    1.
    have objective reality or being.
    2.
    live, especially under adverse conditions.

    Bards do not exist in WoW. Even the one example of a near-bard is not a Bard; He's a Dwarven Fiddler.
    These two beg to differ: Hearthsinger Forresten (1, 2, WoWPedia) and Camerick Jongleur (WoWPedia)

    Then explain how Kael'thas was a Blood Mage. And Necromantic magic is not Shadow magic; Shadow magic does not raise undead else Warlocks would be able to.
    Yet none of his spells dealt with blood, did it? The 'blood' in 'blood mage' is simply because of the new name he gave to his people: Blood Elves.

    Because Monks had martial arts, making them unique. Demon Hunters have different weapons which just so happen to already exist and are wielded by many other classes.
    Also, Monks can wield two handers as well.
    And Demon Hunters can dual wield, something that warlocks cannot. And they're night elves, something the warlocks cannot be.

    In a link which was not recognizable as a link until mentioned as such. This isn't helping either argument, I admit that I didn't check if it was a link and that I spoke from memory.
    That excuse doesn't work because if you actually bothered to read what was on your screen while you were typing your response to his post, you'd see the URL string on the string for the picture.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Then they would overlap with Mages, who use Arcane magic already. And it would break the lore which already states that Demon Hunters use Demon magic, which is Fel.
    Enough with this 'overlap' excuse. Druids don't overlap with mages because both use arcane. Priests don't overlap with paladins because both wield the Light. Warlocks and mages don't overlap because both use fire magic.

    Simple isn't it? You cannot change the magic they use without breaking their lore. It's already established they use the power of demons against demons. If they don't use the power of demons, they aren't Demon Hunters.
    Except no one is saying they would not use power from demons. People are saying they use other kinds of magic in addition to using magic from demons. Y'know, Arcane and Shadow, for one?

    Death Knight's Vampiric magic is actually Blood magic, which Priests don't have. Priests Vampiric magic is actually Shadow magic, which Death Knights don't have. Death Knights 'Shadow magic' are actually diseases, which Priests don't have. Priests 'Diseases' are Shadow magic, which Death Knights don't have.
    "Blood magic" = Shadow magic. There is no 'blood' magic. DK's diseases are also shadow magic. Stop using headcanon as facts.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2014-06-24 at 05:51 PM. Reason: fixed mistyping.

  15. #815
    The Patient gguga12's Avatar
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  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    If it was ever assumed that Night Elves COULD not be Mages, then it was assumed wrong, and there was lore proving why it was wrong. Just as you are assuming Demon Hunters can use different methods as Warlocks; There is already lore proving you wrong.
    Actually the assumption works the other way around, because the current identity of the Demon Hunter is so closely tied to the Warlock based on the fact that the Warlock class draws so closely from the DH. It was more of a separation before Metamorphosis was given to Warlocks. The current assumption is that they're the same thing, as you, Teriz and Talen would argue.

    It remains that it is possible for Blizzard to change that perception. I am not making the assumption that Demon Hunters use different magic, but I am saying there is precedent for it considering lore itself can be changed to suit the needs of any class. Just as Brewmasters, whose Drunken theme overshadowed their Martial Arts, yet Martial Arts became the basis of the Monk. Demon Hunters have a strong 'Demonic Magic' theme, but it could be possible to have their Vengeance and Spellbreaking themes used for a 'Slayer' class, dedicated to hunting all types of evil and using many types of magic. Demon Hunter would be a Fel-magic focused spec within the Slayer.

    The core identity of Slayers would be derived directly from Warcraft 3 Demon Hunters, but it allows room to expand, while all familiar elements of the DH are kept within one spec. Just as Priests and Paladins share common themes but are differentiated by use of Shadow Magic and Plate Tanking, Warlocks and Slayers would share common theme of having one spec dedicated to Demonic magic, but are separated by all other facets. Warlocks summon demons and attack with curses; Slayers would absorb/control magic (Spellbreaker) and use abilities like Vengeance (War3 Warden ultimate) and Mana Flare (Faerie Dragon).

    Capable? Absolutely. But why would they change the lore for Demon Hunters when the only people who want them want the Warcraft III version? It's not the Warcraft III version if it gets changed.
    Because there is no separation between factions such as the Illidari to characters like Sindweller, Altruis and Loramus. If you kept up with any of Teriz's arguments, he maintains that Sindweller, Altruis and Loramus are all part of the Illidari, even though we're not specifically told where their allegiance lies. They are simply quest givers we interact with, while Illidari are an enemy faction. The only connection is that they're all Demon Hunters, yet there is no lore available to tell us if there are multiple DH 'factions', or if they're all really still working for Illidan.

    We need explanations for their origins, where the majority of DH went after the 3rd war, who the 'Dark Herald' is. We need more information to see what other abilities they might have, what other weapons they might use, what type of armor they could wear and most importantly, what reasons they could have to join the Alliance and Horde. These are all missing lore pieces, simply because Demon Hunters are steeped in mystery.

    Then they would overlap with Mages, who use Arcane magic already. And it would break the lore which already states that Demon Hunters use Demon magic, which is Fel.
    Which is why I bring up the example of the Slayer. I'm sure this is not the first time you've heard me use this example. A Slayer using Arcane-based Spellbreaker magic would help define their class, while 'Demon Hunter' would remain as a Fel-based spec. This wouldn't break any lore, while expanding all themes in a new direction that does not conflict with existing classes. You could still argue that DH spec is still too similar to Warlocks, but is that any different than Paladins and Priests sharing Holy healing specs based on the same faiths? Not really, since the overall classes are still wildly different. Also, DH spec would obviously be melee-oriented, making the gameplay immediately different.

    Just like Frost Death Knights and Frost Mages. The source is not the same, therefore the magic is not the same. For Demon Hunters, the source is Fel. For Warlocks, the source is Fel. They are the same.
    Here's a visual graph to show how what I think a possible class would fit in. Overlaps are not an issue when you realize how these themes fit together. Despite whatever overlap there is, each class has at least one spec that defines them.

    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-24 at 06:08 PM.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is.
    It's not. Otherwise Execute is a one shot kill. (Hint: It's not.)

    So do ghosts. Which renders your point meaningless.
    Many quests gather the essence of ghosts in WoW. Meaning they are tangible.

    These two beg to differ: Hearthsinger Forresten (1, 2, WoWPedia) and Camerick Jongleur (WoWPedia)
    Plays an instrument =/= Bard. Same issue as singing. If there's no magic behind it, it doesn't do anything, making it not an example.

    Yet none of his spells dealt with blood, did it? The 'blood' in 'blood mage' is simply because of the new name he gave to his people: Blood Elves.
    http://www.wowhead.com/npc=22945/sha...mage#abilities
    Blood Bolt - Inflicts damage. Not proof, as it doesn't explain how the spell works. HOWEVER:
    Blood Siphon - Steals health. Vampirism. Blood magic.

    And Demon Hunters can dual wield, something that warlocks cannot. And they're night elves, something the warlocks cannot be.
    As seen by Enhancement and Fury spec, Dual wield is very easily fixed by a spec. As is adding a class to a race, as seen by Cataclysm. If it makes sense, they'll do it.

    Enough with this 'overlap' excuse. Druids don't overlap with mages because both use arcane. Priests don't overlap with paladins because both wield the Light. Warlocks and mages don't overlap because both use fire magic.
    Because the SOURCE is different. Druids gain their 'Arcane' magic from the Moon, which is a part of Nature, which in turn makes it Nature magic. Mages use actual Arcane magic. Priests and Paladins are the only ones who gain their power from the exact same source, and understandably so because Paladins WERE formerly Priests. Warlocks fire comes from Fel, Mages from Arcane.

    Except no one is saying they would not use power from demons. People are saying they use other kinds of magic in addition to using magic from demons. Y'know, Arcane and Shadow, for one?
    Arcane - Covered by Mages.
    Shadow & fel - Covered by Warlocks

    Anything else?

    "Blood magic" = Shadow magic. There is no 'blood' magic. DK's diseases are also shadow magic. Stop using headcanon as facts.
    Shadowmoon Blood Mage begs to differ. DK's diseases are are diseases. Stop calling fact headcanon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Shadowmoon Blood Mage begs to differ. DK's diseases are are diseases. Stop calling fact headcanon.
    You're using headcanon to separate Shadow Priest diseases from Death Knight ones, using arbitrary semantics. They're all diseases, they're all derived from shadow-based source of spellcasting. They aren't different other than the method these classes use them, but they are the same type of spells. Any means of differentiating one Disease from another Disease is headcanon.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-24 at 06:22 PM.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You're using headcanon to separate Shadow Priest diseases from Death Knight ones, using arbitrary semantics. They're all diseases, they're all derived from shadow-based source of spellcasting. They aren't different other than the method these classes use them, but they are the same type of spells. Any means of differentiating one Disease from another Disease is headcanon.
    Shadow-based? Yes, but it's as different as Frost DKs and Frost Mages. They're both Frost-based magic, but they come from different sources. Again, Death Knight diseases are different than Shadow Priest diseases; One is caused by undeath, the other is caused by shadow magic. Which is different from one another.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Actually the assumption works the other way around, because the current identity of the Demon Hunter is so closely tied to the Warlock based on the fact that the Warlock class draws so closely from the DH. It was more of a separation before Metamorphosis was given to Warlocks. The current assumption is that they're the same thing, as you, Teriz and Talen would argue.

    It remains that it is possible for Blizzard to change that perception. I am not making the assumption that Demon Hunters use different magic, but I am saying there is precedent for it considering lore itself can be changed to suit the needs of any class. Just as Brewmasters, whose Drunken theme overshadowed their Martial Arts, yet Martial Arts became the basis of the Monk. Demon Hunters have a strong 'Demonic Magic' theme, but it could be possible to have their Vengeance and Spellbreaking themes used for a 'Slayer' class, dedicated to hunting all types of evil and using many types of magic. Demon Hunter would be a Fel-magic focused spec within the Slayer.

    The core identity of Slayers would be derived directly from Warcraft 3 Demon Hunters, but it allows room to expand, while all familiar elements of the DH are kept within one spec. Just as Priests and Paladins share common themes but are differentiated by use of Shadow Magic and Plate Tanking, Warlocks and Slayers would share common theme of having one spec dedicated to Demonic magic, but are separated by all other facets. Warlocks summon demons and attack with curses; Slayers would absorb/control magic (Spellbreaker) and use abilities like Vengeance (War3 Warden ultimate) and Mana Flare (Faerie Dragon).
    Anti-magic spells have been slowly removed with the exception of a raid cooldown to reduce magic damage and Death Knights, which already cover the anti-magic class. And if we're going to make Demon Hunters a spec after pages upon pages upon PAGES of arguing about how Demon Hunters deserve their own class... Why would we give it to a new class instead of the one that already encompasses pretty much everything a Demon Hunter is?

    They're similar enough where they can be merged. They pretty much are already. Why make a new class just to add Demon Hunter as a spec?

    *For the record, Teriz's arguments are not mine. I do believe Alruis and Loramus and Sindweller are their own people and don't need to be tied to any faction.*

    We need explanations for their origins, where the majority of DH went after the 3rd war, who the 'Dark Herald' is. We need more information to see what other abilities they might have, what other weapons they might use, what type of armor they could wear and most importantly, what reasons they could have to join the Alliance and Horde. These are all missing lore pieces, simply because Demon Hunters are steeped in mystery.
    They aren't as steeped in mystery as you make them out to be. We know what other abilities they might have. Fel and Arcane magic dictates it, as that's the magic they use. We know what armor they could wear: Leather, MAYBE mail. We know what reasons they MIGHT have to join Alliance and Horde: To defeat the Legion in the upcoming Legion expansion. That's been their one sole purpose since their inception: to defeat the Legion.

    Which is why I bring up the example of the Slayer. I'm sure this is not the first time you've heard me use this example. A Slayer using Arcane-based Spellbreaker magic would help define their class, while 'Demon Hunter' would remain as a Fel-based spec. This wouldn't break any lore, while expanding all themes in a new direction that does not conflict with existing classes. You could still argue that DH spec is still too similar to Warlocks, but is that any different than Paladins and Priests sharing Holy healing specs based on the same faiths? Not really, since the overall classes are still wildly different. Also, DH spec would obviously be melee-oriented, making the gameplay immediately different.
    This is more like it. But it still begs the question why a Demon Hunter, which is already so similar to Warlocks, is being added to a new class instead of the class that already emulates it. But it's more like it; It avoids the major overlap that a Demon Hunter class would have with Warlocks and introduces a class idea that is unique in what it's meant to do. But that's not what we've been arguing.

    Here's a visual graph to show how what I think a possible class would fit in. Overlaps are not an issue when you realize how these themes fit together. Despite whatever overlap there is, each class has at least one spec that defines them.

    See, now that I could get behind. The fact of the matter, which is the argument we've been at for however many pages however, is that Demon Hunters do not have an identity for a class on it's own that is unique. As a spec of another class like Slayer or Warlock? Sure, I can see it happening. Not on it's own, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Shadow-based? Yes, but it's as different as Frost DKs and Frost Mages. They're both Frost-based magic, but they come from different sources. Again, Death Knight diseases are different than Shadow Priest diseases; One is caused by undeath, the other is caused by shadow magic. Which is different from one another.
    Devouring Plague used to be the racial of the Forsaken, who are undead. Undeath magic itself is shadow magic, as there is no specific 'Undeath' magic type in the game.

    See, now that I could get behind. The fact of the matter, which is the argument we've been at for however many pages however, is that Demon Hunters do not have an identity for a class on it's own that is unique. As a spec of another class like Slayer or Warlock? Sure, I can see it happening. Not on it's own, however.
    It works both ways. The reason I do not use Demon Hunter name is to avoid conflict with the Hunter name. Vengeance and Spellbreaking are just as much a part of the Demon Hunter identity as the use of Fel-magic. He even has multiple quotes about vengeance and revenge in his Warcraft 3 quotes.

    This is simply giving it the 'Monk' treatment. Monks are basically the Brewmaster translated into WoW. Slayer would be a Demon Hunter translated. It's what I've always been pushing for in my arguments, that the possibility is there, and it's not any more unlikely than a Tinker or any other class concept.

    But it still begs the question why a Demon Hunter, which is already so similar to Warlocks, is being added to a new class instead of the class that already emulates it
    One major reason to add DH is fan recognition/popularity. It's second only to Death Knights, which already got added, and Pandarens as a race.

    However, my personal reason is because of the dichotomy between the Death Knight and the Demon Hunter. In The Frozen Throne, we were shown two characters who went down dark paths, equal in strength and struggling to outdo one another. Those characters were Arthas and Illidan. Their parallels are as strong as that between Paladins and Shamans. Since TFT, I've seen these two classes are two sides of the same coin, two halves to a whole. Their mythology has been raised to epic levels, and that is why the two classes remain so popular amongst fans. Since Death Knights have been added to the roster, it only makes sense to add Demon Hunters as well.

    While I do like other class concepts like Bards and Tinkers, I don't exclude DH simply on the basis of theme overlap. It has never been a problem before (as shown by my graph) and it would not be a problem in the future.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2014-06-24 at 06:48 PM.

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