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  1. #1
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    PSA: Simulationcraft fixed for MoP Mages

    For the past expansion or two, SimulationCraft has had a lot of trouble giving accurate numbers for mages. After a quick round of fixes to frost at the start of MoP, the mage module was left without a dedicated maintainer and left in shambles. Many top mages have been quoted saying that SimC is useless, and as a result it was largely abandoned for most purposes.

    We're happy to announce that the SimC mage module now has an active maintenance community hosted at Altered Time (http://www.altered-time.com). Many of the problems have been fixed, and simulations accurately represent what mages of each spec do with their rotation. In fact, if you hop over to the latest sample charts (http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T16H.html), you'll notice that all 3 mages are within the top 6 of the 27 DPS specs. In particular, Fire spec used to be in the bottom 5, and is now ranked 3rd or 4th among all specs.

    Some of the notable fixes are as below:
    - Changed all specs to react to PBoI procs properly, especially with Alter Time
    - Fixed a bug where Frost used to lose their icicles after using Alter Time
    - Fixed Arcane where it used to have ~88% LB uptime, now ~99%
    - Fixed Arcane where mastery used to affect cloak damage
    - Fixed a lot of issues with Fire's rotation: ignite building with Pyroblasts before Combustion, POM-Alter Time Combustion combos, Pyro camping instead of firing instant pyros ASAP, 2T16 camping, reacting to trinket procs, avoiding munching Pyro procs
    - Too many other small optimizations to list out

    Just to whet your appetite, here are some heroic trinket comparisons generated with the new SimC mage module:
    Arcane: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=202
    Fire: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=196
    Frost: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=197

    All of these are now live on the release version of SimulationCraft, and we'd like to invite you to try it out youself. Head over to http://www.simulationcraft.org/download.html to try it out yourself. If you see any issues with it, or if you wish to make suggestions for improvement, don't hesitate to register at Altered Time (http://www.altered-time.com) and post about it in the forums!

    For more info on what we did, check out the news post on AT: http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=205

    (signed)
    Akraen of the House Natural Order, the First of His Name, King of Argent Dawn, King of Ysera, Stormrage, Steamwheedle Cartel, and Frost Mages. Co-Regent of Altered Time, Protector of the Theorycraft Realm, Archmage of Kalimdor, Breaker of Fears and Roots, Father of Water Elementals

    P.S. All 3 Mage specs are above all 3 Warlock specs. As it should be!

  2. #2
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Woo awesome! Would have been nice like a year ago, but at least there are eyes attending to it for sure.

  3. #3
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Woo awesome! Would have been nice like a year ago, but at least there are eyes attending to it for sure.
    Yup. At least there is a group of people working on it now, and it'll definitely be ready for WoD, most likely in time for us to use it to find out what to do rather than build SimC based on what we do!

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  4. #4
    So now we can use SimC refferences to prove our points?
    Woeeeheoeoeoeoe

  5. #5
    High Overlord Huevos's Avatar
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    That's awesome news guys, thanks so much for your hard work on this. SimC is a tool I've missed this expansion, pretty excited to get it back!

  6. #6
    Wait... really? I thought it was never going to get fixed. Great news for the mage community, +1 internets to the SimC mage team.

  7. #7
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    Very well done to all who participated! I tried to follow the discussions for a very limited time and it didn't work out for us

  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral WarpKnight's Avatar
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    Awesomeballs! Good work guys!

    Can't wait to get home and test it out.
    Death's cold embrace awaits.

  9. #9
    but it still shows only what is in theory better - playtesting is what realy matters, but it can push you to the right way. pls just see difference between theory and real situation, because you can learn much more from playing your spec

    i'd be glad to have this for WoD to push us to the "right" direction at least for first few weeks - after that it doesn't matter

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetesh View Post
    but it still shows only what is in theory better - playtesting is what realy matters, but it can push you to the right way. pls just see difference between theory and real situation, because you can learn much more from playing your spec

    i'd be glad to have this for WoD to push us to the "right" direction at least for first few weeks - after that it doesn't matter
    For sure! Simcraft is a tool to test theory and get technical ideas out of. The user has to understand this to make the fullest use out of it.
    Got questions about mages or want your logs analyzed? Feel free to PM me, or better yet, post on altered-time.com forums.
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  11. #11
    Good job! What is the reason for you to change pyroblast.react heating_up.react to pyroblast.up heating_up.up? Isn't react checking if player can react in time?

  12. #12
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tolgag View Post
    Good job! What is the reason for you to change pyroblast.react heating_up.react to pyroblast.up heating_up.up? Isn't react checking if player can react in time?
    I could be mistaken, but I think that's the change that makes it so the Sim holds a Pyro! until you also have a heating up proc as well.
    Raids & Dungeons Mod | <Despotism> 14/14H (10-man); 14/14H (25-man); 2 Days/Week US-Greymane <> Recruiting for Mythic

  13. #13
    I'll give it a look. Hopefully it can actually calculate stat weights properly with these changes, getting really tired of explaining to people how much SimC, and by extension Noxx rankings and AMR, suck for mages.

  14. #14
    High Overlord Liveet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    I'll give it a look. Hopefully it can actually calculate stat weights properly with these changes, getting really tired of explaining to people how much SimC, and by extension Noxx rankings and AMR, suck for mages.
    I just tried it out, and as it seems it actually calculates the difference between Mastery and Haste very good atleast. Have to try out more then 10k iterations to see if it actually Simulates it properly.

  15. #15
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liveet View Post
    I just tried it out, and as it seems it actually calculates the difference between Mastery and Haste very good atleast. Have to try out more then 10k iterations to see if it actually Simulates it properly.
    Well we have been running extensive simulations of Haste vs Mastery for Fire, and we are seeing a trend very much like we see people reporting on live. I think they linked the specific threads in the OP, but we are trying to explore the secondary stats now.

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  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liveet View Post
    I just tried it out, and as it seems it actually calculates the difference between Mastery and Haste very good atleast. Have to try out more then 10k iterations to see if it actually Simulates it properly.
    http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=198

    These are some of the early results we've found. TL;DR In BiS best haste/mastery is somewhere around 9.6k-12k haste and 10k-12.5k mastery.
    Got questions about mages or want your logs analyzed? Feel free to PM me, or better yet, post on altered-time.com forums.
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  17. #17
    High Overlord Liveet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kver View Post
    Well we have been running extensive simulations of Haste vs Mastery for Fire, and we are seeing a trend very much like we see people reporting on live. I think they linked the specific threads in the OP, but we are trying to explore the secondary stats now.
    Lovely! Ahyea, I tried out a few different settings, and the only actual point where Haste proved better then Mastery was at a Garrosh type of fight. As in more then 9 minutes. Other then that Mastery was always just a little step better. ( Simulations was done around 9.5k haste for the record)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    http://altered-time.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=198

    These are some of the early results we've found. TL;DR In BiS best haste/mastery is somewhere around 9.6k-12k haste and 10k-12.5k mastery.
    Thanks for linking it. Grateful that you guys put in this kind of work! Fun to see that live testings actually worked out well in comparison to theory. I've seen and heard a few people which tend to go even lower then 9.6k haste. Wonder how that will turn out.
    Edit: Just read everything through now. Makes so much sense!

  18. #18
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Awesome work guys!!!
    "Haste will fix it" - Ghostcrawler

  19. #19
    we don't need simcraft to calculate what is better for fire we are playing the spec for so long.... and we know that for shorter fight crit>mastery>haste+luck on PBoI and longer (+-4m +) fight crit>haste>mastery - THIS we learnd from PLAYING fire and it is much more important than just some simulation ---> simcraft is goot if we are creating theorycraft not when we are playng the spec for more than a year

  20. #20
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetesh View Post
    we don't need simcraft to calculate what is better for fire we are playing the spec for so long.... and we know that for shorter fight crit>mastery>haste+luck on PBoI and longer (+-4m +) fight crit>haste>mastery - THIS we learnd from PLAYING fire and it is much more important than just some simulation ---> simcraft is goot if we are creating theorycraft not when we are playng the spec for more than a year
    Still always nice to have simulated math back you up. And either way 99% of players don't know how to accurately napkin math and might not want to believe some person on a forums saying "hey it is better this way" (and honestly you should always test things yourself first).

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