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  1. #21
    High Overlord Liveet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetesh View Post
    we don't need simcraft to calculate what is better for fire we are playing the spec for so long.... and we know that for shorter fight crit>mastery>haste+luck on PBoI and longer (+-4m +) fight crit>haste>mastery - THIS we learnd from PLAYING fire and it is much more important than just some simulation ---> simcraft is goot if we are creating theorycraft not when we are playng the spec for more than a year
    If that is how you feel, then fine. But you are looking at this in such a narrow way. There are multiple scenarios where Simulations are going to let you see exactly what is better and what is not. The time it takes to actually check that out yourself ingame is so much longer then what it takes to run a simulate. Just for an example. Sha Of Pride, how are you supposed to know what build is best there? Well, either you could go and simulate a fight that is somewhat alike Sha Of Pride, or you could get a group, clear up to Sha Of Pride, then wipe there a whole day just because you want to try out what build is best. What sounds better to you?

    You have to think of this as a long term goal too. Finally we have a group of people that actually puts in dedicated time into doing this, for players like YOU and ME, players that aren't capable of coding, getting SimC right or just don't have the time to do it. They are doing all this just for us. So why would you want to take that effort away from them? By stating, "we already know this". Well, you surely will not know it the day that WoD hits, and you surely wouldn't have known it if not the players stated above had done extensive in game testing already. I really doubt that you've put in more then a few hours to check what build is correct.

    So please, spare us the complains about all this and go on with your ingame testing.

    Really good job with this all of you! Been running multiple Sims now again with the current gear since it's all upgraded now, and the output are truly helping.

  2. #22
    Frankly all this extra work to get Simcraft up and running for mages at the end of an expansion seems like a waste of time. Then again it's not my time so more power to you.
    Now if they could do the same for the beginning WoD that would be pretty helpful.
    But, more than likely simcraft will be semi accurate to not even close at all sim for most classes at the start of WoD. I would take it's sims with a grain of salt.

  3. #23
    again: "...simcraft is goot if we are creating theorycraft..."

    simcraft is just a tool to show us corect way after some big changes -> i'm saying that it is irrelevant to simulate spec we are paying for more than a year - experience is much more important

    for that Sha: movement, some cleave, target switching --> if you are playing mage long enough you know what to play, if not than you have people like Vykina who tells you what to play
    Last edited by Quetesh; 2014-06-19 at 11:28 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetesh View Post
    again: "...simcraft is goot if we are creating theorycraft..."

    simcraft is just a tool to show us corect way after some big changes -> i'm saying that it is irrelevant to simulate spec we are paying for more than a year - experience is much more important

    for that Sha: movement, some cleave, target switching --> if you are playing mage long enough you know what to play, if not than you have people like Vykina who tells you what to play
    I get what you're saying is Theorycrafting data will always produce less accurate data then Practical data. Although the former will take less time than latter. Meh, I still say it's too late in the expac to really worry about any of the sim nonsense.
    Last edited by Bigvizz; 2014-06-19 at 12:07 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigvizz View Post
    I get what you're saying is Theorycrafting data will always produce less accurate data then Practical data. Although the former will take less time than latter. Meh, I still say it's too late in the expac to really worry about any of the sim nonsense.
    Missing the forest for the trees. We now have a foundation to moving into WoD on.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost1129 View Post
    Missing the forest for the trees. We now have a foundation to moving into WoD on.
    Well at least i won't get smack in the face with a tree. This "Foundation" you're talking about is made out of paper mache. Nothing is really set in stone till WoD goes live.

  7. #27
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quetesh View Post
    we don't need simcraft to calculate what is better for fire we are playing the spec for so long.... and we know that for shorter fight crit>mastery>haste+luck on PBoI and longer (+-4m +) fight crit>haste>mastery - THIS we learnd from PLAYING fire and it is much more important than just some simulation ---> simcraft is goot if we are creating theorycraft not when we are playng the spec for more than a year
    This is not completely true. Even on very long fights, you don't really go above 12k haste unless you have very low crit. These are the type of things we found out, that even on 450 seconds (7.5+mins) fights we'd still want to roughly equal haste and mastery somewhere around 10-12k.
    Got questions about Fire mages or want your logs analyzed? Feel free to PM me.

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  8. #28
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigvizz View Post
    Well at least i won't get smack in the face with a tree. This "Foundation" you're talking about is made out of paper mache. Nothing is really set in stone till WoD goes live.
    I think what they mean is that they have now have a module that's accurate to mages now, with people who are interested in keeping it up, so that once WoD changes are set in stone, they can re-create that accuracy for mage play then. And that's a good thing.
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  9. #29
    awesome to see fire dmg more accurate

    hopefully these get adjusted on wowprogress soon

  10. #30
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Warrior's did not discover that Bladestorm is better than Dragon Roar at single target playing the game and having "experience"
    It seemed obvious to everyone that DR was better, guess what, Collision and SimC proved the impossible...

  11. #31
    I hope that we will have acurate simcraft when WoD starts, but i am a bit sceptical, because they are introsuciong clunky ratings like multistrike. Simulating musltistrike will be pretty hard and i don't know if we will have enough data to make acurate simulations. we must figure out rotations and how all new ratings work and it will take some time. Beta could solve that .... i hope

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    This is not completely true. Even on very long fights, you don't really go above 12k haste unless you have very low crit. These are the type of things we found out, that even on 450 seconds (7.5+mins) fights we'd still want to roughly equal haste and mastery somewhere around 10-12k.
    from Vykina's guide:
    "Originally Posted by Madruga

    Hi Vykina!

    In need of some advice!

    Now with the new upgrades, what do you think would be worth it?

    1 - Crit > Haste > Mastery, all the way
    2 - Crit > Haste to 14100 > Mastery, reforge to Mastery
    3 - Same as 2, but another Haste breakpoint?

    I have seen the updated gear list, and crap I have been passing those new items for some weeks ¬¬. And I realized they all are Mastery items... So I supose it is not worth it going all Haste as before, right?

    Thanks for your help!
    "

    "Completely depends! There is no definitive answer I can give to anyone because it depends completely on your guild and gear. If you are in a progress environment or have slow kills/low raid DPS, you should stick to Crit>Haste>Mastery. If not then you should aim for a cap somewhere between 11k-14k (again depending on your guild+gear) and stack Mastery after that."

    Vykina should know that

  12. #32
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Well you're free to believe what you want,however:

    Firstly, that reply is old, before simc got fixed. Secondly, vykina isn't an all knowing god, he's just another mage who wrote a very popular guide. Not arguing whether he's knowledgeable or not, I personally also thought 14.1k haste was better until a few weeks ago. We ran over a million simulations on different gearsets, after double and even triple checking all the theory behind the mage module, and optimizing the fire mage APL (the list which decides what ability to use when) for weeks.

    Arguing that a group of 10 people some with very high end raiding experience, some with high end maths backgrounds, but mostly a lot of problem solvers, who have provided proof with over a million iterations, that a certain thing is better with a "but this guy who wrote a guide said something different 2 months ago" isn't exactly a good counter argument, you know?

    Also, a quick thing about 14.1k haste, that also came from us initially, and vykina adopted it. Keep in mind, vykina is replying to all kinds of gear levels, and for a lot of people, haste > mastery on their entire gear, however, for true BiS this is simply not the case at all, but even if he knows/agrees about the 10.4k haste build, he still wouldnt reply that to a person in normal gear, because it's not always the case for low geared people.

    I like your approach to not trusting simcraft / maths for practical uses, I completely agree! However, The results simcraft give us were for pure single target, and if anything, mastery becomes better on multitarget, not worse, only skewing the favour more towards mastery.
    Last edited by Dutchmagoz; 2014-06-20 at 08:44 AM.
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  13. #33
    The Patient Kver's Avatar
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    14.1k haste is something I came up with together with Dutchmagoz when everybody was advising fire mages to stack haste and we thought that that was stupid, so we came up with that cap based on the 2 piece and breakpoints. It turns out that it's not the best, fair enough. It would be a bit silly to stick to a theory defended by somebody who adopted it without question, though.

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  14. #34
    14.1k haste was obvious when you tried t16 2p but in that moment most people just didn't have that much haste on gear so it was simple crit>haste>mastery. When we got some more haste items from SoO whole 14.1k haste idea become mych more relevant.

    I'm glad that we have finaly simcraft that can push us to the right direction but how you said simcraft is acurate only on single target dps so using is to min/max real situations is not acurate enough and all aplications on real situations are just assumptions based on our experience. Simcraft is just a tool and it is on us how we will interpret that results. Simulations are one of the most complicated field in IT - just because people are using results incorectly.

  15. #35
    Wow is black blood really that good for frost?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Txiv View Post
    Wow is black blood really that good for frost?
    KTT multi-strike does not effect your Water Elemental, while the haste (or re-forged state) does.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    Warrior's did not discover that Bladestorm is better than Dragon Roar at single target playing the game and having "experience"
    It seemed obvious to everyone that DR was better, guess what, Collision and SimC proved the impossible...
    Not only warriors, enhance shamans are also in the same boat. If not for SimC I don't know if people would've really discovered that Herbalism has by far the biggest dps gain for the spec, or that you should delay your biggest dps cooldown instead of using it right away (except on pull of course).

    For some reason many people outright don't trust SimC (while it's an incredible tool), while all they shouldn't trust is SimC's default APLs.

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