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  1. #21
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    There's a difference in that tons of people saw ZA and ZG as current content and had done the bosses, literally less than 1% of players saw Naxxaramas.
    I'm actually very dubious that "tons" of people saw either ZA OR ZG when they were "current content."
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  2. #22
    Banned wych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I'm actually very dubious that "tons" of people saw either ZA OR ZG when they were "current content."
    In comparison to Naxxaramas, yes they did.

    They were entry level raids, Naxxaramas required 40 man raid guilds that had cleared MC, Onyxia, BWL, AQ40. And Naxx wasn't out for too long before TBC, Blizzard said themselves many times how disappointed they were over not many seeing it, which is where the less than 1% comes from.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Dragon Soul had some re-used assets because they made sense. It took place, after all, in Wyrmrest Temple, the seat of power for all of the surviving dragonflights. Where else would you do it? It had to take place on Azeroth and it feels like you'd label it a "rehash" no matter where they stuck it.
    Just because wyrmwrest is the "seat of power" for all surviving dragon flights, does not automatically mean thats where the raid should take place. There was speculation that the raid would have taken place in deepholm in his "lair". They could have done something extreamly cool with that concept. They could have done any variety of other things to make the raid less "rehash," but instead they decided to have 2 of their new 5 man dungeons in the same environment as dragon blight, and their raid dungeon was literally a copy and paste job from dragonblight while adding some tentacles and old ones as bosses.

    ZG and ZA were done supremely and brought back those raids that anyone post classic/TBC never raided anyway for them to enjoy. Scholo, DM, and SFK are all great re-creations that also have their level-appropriate versions still available.
    Who asked for these dungeons to be redone? I never saw the playerbase asking for this. Although some of them are pretty cool, its still taking old content, and putting a fresh coat of paint over them.

    SoO obviously has to take place in Orgrimmar for Christ's sake. Come on. You're invading the damn place. What, were they supposed to design a whole new Orgrimmar that no one has ever seen before and expected people to believe it?
    Same applies to orgrimmar as it does to Dragon Soul. The original concept of the whole expansion that we have to kill garrosh, or dethrone him could have been done differently to reduce having to rehash Orgrimmar.

    Scenarios. Really? Rehashes? You're just grasping for straws here. At that rate we might as well call anything with lava a rehash of Molten Core. Exodar is a rehash of Tempest Keep (or the other way around). Dragonblight is a rehash of Winterspring. Should I go on?
    This is ridiculous. So me questing through jade forest and finding greenstone village, then seeing it again as a scenario wasnt a rehash? Come on now, its an EXACT copy of that area of jade forest.

    The rest aren't even worth mentioning.
    They are still relevant, they are still reused assets in almost the exact same way they were originally used.


    I love the implication that the first raid isn't new or original.
    No implication at all, but Seige of Orgrimmar being the last raid of this current expansion having 50% of it reused makes me fear they will do it again with WoD.
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  4. #24
    I love the rehashing. Wish they would rehash pretty much all the old content in one way or another eventually.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    the Nexus was a new dungeon, but it sucked. ZG was a "rehashed" dungeon, but it was much more fun than Nexus.
    Subjective opinion is subjective.

    I found nexus to be extremely fun.
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  6. #26
    Epic! Alundra's Avatar
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    If it makes sense to re-use then they should definitely do so. Re-using old assets in new places gives that feeling of continuity and believability to the world.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post

    • Dragon Soul (almost entire instance was a rehash)
      Yeah it reused Art assets but everything else was new.
    • Zul'Gurub (rehash of the 20 man raid)
      Again reused art assets but gave us new interesting mechanics.
    • Zul'Aman (rehash of the 10 man raid)
      I'll give you this one.
    • Naxxaramus 2.0 (a literal copy and paste from vanilla naxx for wrath progression content)
      I can give you this one as well even though only a small % of people saw the original Naxxramas
    • Scholomance (rehash of the classic dungeon)
    • Shadowfang keep (rehash of the classic dungeon)
    • Deadmines (rehash of the classic dungeon)
      Old art, new bosses and mechanics
    • Seige of Orgrimmar (literally 50% of the raid was previous out door world environments)
      Seriously?
    • Scenarios (many of them a rehash of an already outdoor open environment)
      That is kind of the point...
    • Onyxia (a copy and paste to Wrath updated to 80)
      Justified rehash as it was only meant as a neat reward for 5 year anniversary
    • Black wing descent (rehashed Nefarian, Re-Rehashed Onyxia)
      Yeah it featured two bosses we fought before but with new art and new mechanics. Such Rehash. Much Lazy

    Now this list even surprises me as a long time fan of the franchise. It looks like a whole expansion could have been made from this. At what point does the rehashing become unacceptable to you? Or, is it okay that they continue this trend, and will likely continue it even into WoD?

    I'm fine with rehashing as long as it's done like SFK, Schol, SM, SH etc.
    Will we see original content for the end raid of WoD?

    I feel that they definately have the resources to be able to come up with original ideas that a) stick to the lore and cannon of warcraft, and b) are new and feel fresh and fun.

    A) The lore and cannon of Warcraft isn't set in specific stones, the World of Warcraft has many story lines that evolve over time or story lines that appear over time.

    B) The majority of these 'rehashes' are a fresh take on old stories and fun is highly subjective.
    Why do you have to be so negative all the time man!

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  8. #28
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    In comparison to Naxxaramas, yes they did.

    They were entry level raids, Naxxaramas required 40 man raid guilds that had cleared MC, Onyxia, BWL, AQ40. And Naxx wasn't out for too long before TBC, Blizzard said themselves many times how disappointed they were over not many seeing it, which is where the less than 1% comes from.
    Comparison doesn't mean "tons." And neither were "entry level" raids. ZG is about as obscure a raid as you could get by the time Cataclysm came out, and would likely have been all but forgotten in that little corner of STV if not for the two mounts.
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  9. #29
    Banned wych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Comparison doesn't mean "tons." And neither were "entry level" raids. ZG is about as obscure a raid as you could get by the time Cataclysm came out, and would likely have been all but forgotten in that little corner of STV if not for the two mounts.
    The number of players who saw ZA and ZG as current content was considerably larger than the number that saw Naxx, that's all there is to it really. And that's why it's far more understandable that Naxx was "rehashed" than ZA or ZG

  10. #30
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Subjective opinion is subjective.

    I found nexus to be extremely fun.
    How about oculus, then? Ton's o' fun, right?

    Or are you going to argue that Oculus was only terrible "because we had seen the oculus spire from a distance" and not because of the actual reasons it was terrible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wych View Post
    The number of players who saw ZA and ZG as current content was considerably larger than the number that saw Naxx, that's all there is to it really. And that's why it's far more understandable that Naxx was "rehashed" than ZA or ZG
    They were all baseline forgotten raids who could serve as better story points if they were redone. Naxx was basically a complete lift of the original, ZA is more or less the same in dungeon form, and ZG was different in every respect save for the environment, and even that was changed up pretty heavily.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    How about oculus, then? Ton's o' fun, right?

    Or are you going to argue that Oculus was only terrible "because we had seen the oculus spire from a distance" and not because of the actual reasons it was terrible?
    Again subjective. Oculus was actually a very fun instance. It was different and the first real time we got to control "vehicles" as part of a dungeon encounter. The only reason why people didnt like it was because they couldn't steam roll it in 10 minutes like every other WotLK heroic, and they had to actually use a fiber of their brain to complete it. Morons and the "gimmie gimmie" crowd like easy, brainless activities, which is why they cried so hard in the Cata heroics early on.

    They were all baseline forgotten raids who could serve as better story points if they were redone. Naxx was basically a complete lift of the original, ZA is more or less the same in dungeon form, and ZG was different in every respect save for the environment, and even that was changed up pretty heavily.
    Using the same art assets is still a rehash, no matter how you want to color it. Yes the story can be different, which much of them were, but stil... rehash.
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  12. #32
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    This is ridiculous. So me questing through jade forest and finding greenstone village, then seeing it again as a scenario wasnt a rehash? Come on now, its an EXACT copy of that area of jade forest.
    I'm not going to quibble over every small thing that was re-used in other parts of the game. I want to address the underlying theme, and this is what you seem to be saying: "every quest, dungeon, scenario, or raid must be done in a completely new, never-seen-before location or it's a bad thing".

    So a scenario that is specifically a story that is supposed to take place in Greenstone Village as it is attacked by alementals while brewing should really have taken place in a completely new Greenstone Village that looks nothing like the one that you saw while leveling and uses completely new art assets? Same with Orgrimmar? Instead of invading Orgrimmar itself to put an end to Garrosh were we supposed to find him in some safe-house in the mountains or perhaps a whole new section of Orgrimmar that prior to the raid didn't exist? How about those Isle of Thunder dailies? They take place in the same place the scenarios did. Rehash! Quests that take you to the same location more than once to complete the entire area? Rehash! Hell, let's just call every mob that has a similar skin in-game a complete rehash and lambast Blizzard for it.

    I have no words any more. This just boggles the mind. That you would actually rise up in arms because a scenario takes place in an area you leveled in because the story is relevant to that area just is amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Using the same art assets is still a rehash, no matter how you want to color it. Yes the story can be different, which much of them were, but stil... rehash.
    Then everything is a rehash. Everything. Every single player is a rehash of another player. Every mount is a rehash of another mount in some way. Every zone is a rehash in some way of some other zone. It's all rehashes, 24/7, for everyone.



  13. #33
    re·hash
    verb
    1.
    put (old ideas or material) into a new form without significant change or improvement.
    You'd be hard-pressed to claim that any of your 'rehash' examples haven't been significantly changed or improved. Using the same zone name doesn't count as a rehash.

  14. #34
    Anything can be called a rehash if you look hard enough.
    Blizzard bring back classic content which was well received and players complain about rehashing.
    Blizzard create new content and players will complain how it wasn't as good as x old content.
    Players will complain whatever is done.
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  15. #35
    @Darsithis

    The point is the whole idea behind scenarios being called content is really not content. It is a reuse of what they already did to distract the player base and fool them (us) into thinking they have a plethora of content. Its just plain lazy. Sure some reusing art, some reusing environments for new content is okay, but when it becomes excessive, it crosses the line. Players dont like that, and they dont want that.

    Also, when was the last time you ran a scenario anyway?
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Using the same art assets is still a rehash, no matter how you want to color it. Yes the story can be different, which much of them were, but stil... rehash.
    Every boss in MC aside from Rag is a rehash of other mobs. Almost every dungeons in TBC uses art assets from other dungeons. Every CoT dungeon/raid is just a rehash. Durnholde and Opening of the Dark Portal is 100% rehash from Vanilla.
    "It was just merely a set back" rehash.

    I see none of these listed in your OP, why is that?

  17. #37
    Banned wych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warlock_alt View Post
    You'd be hard-pressed to claim that any of your 'rehash' examples haven't been significantly changed or improved. Using the same zone name doesn't count as a rehash.
    Zul Aman??

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jimlow View Post
    I can't fault them for reusing art assets when they say they are going do redo a dungeon. If they didn't do it a lot more people would be upset that it deviated from the original too much.

    The great majority of the player base only saw the naxx post WotLK so for all intents an purposes it was new art anyways.

    I think you are putting way too much emphasis on rehash and as someone pointed out that's all the "re-hashing" they have done over 10 years...so really it would actually require more effort on my part to be mad at them.
    Scholo used very little from the original. The newer one is an abomination in my opinion. I absolutely hate it and everything I found to be fun in the original is gone.

    I can say the same for Deadmines. My original guild had this thing where when someone would max level out we would get together and do a deadmines zerg and then go fishing off the boat inside. The new DM is trash. Mr. Smite. RIP

    ZG and ZA were not well done. They just closed off some of the areas and threw some random bosses at you. The instances became so despised by people at the time as the random puggers would cause wipes for not paying attention or even caring to try. The time to complete them took too long so Blizzard came back and changed it up again so people would be willing to finish the dungeons. Any and all epicness of them died when the raids where removed.

    Shadowfang Keep. As alliance I have fond memories of trying to get to that dungeon in vanilla. In fact that was half the challenge. So much PvP. Then there was the cool little things like the ghost soldiers lowering your awe weapon skill or sword and so forth. Made it a pretty cool experience. I am not a fan of the new bosses there. I am happy they didn't change the look of the place, would have been a travesty.

    I don't get why Blizzard has to replace the dungeons completely with this new garbage. They should at least put some bronze dragon flight NPC that allows them to go back in time and do the past version of the dungeons. Wouldn't be all that hard.

    Also Cata was the worst thing to happen to WoW besides flying mounts. Instead of having the 1-60 experience be about general story lines with some major story arc aspects everything is locked to that of the Cataclysm which is a horrible experience from the alliance side and makes leveling any toons through it painful. Now several expansions later, it will still be the same and I doubt Blizzard will ever spend the resources to change the world again because of how negatively perceived it was after the fact with Cata. I guess it is one of the things they are hoping will push people to just buy level 90 characters.
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  19. #39
    Elemental Lord Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Again subjective. Oculus was actually a very fun instance. It was different and the first real time we got to control "vehicles" as part of a dungeon encounter. The only reason why people didnt like it was because they couldn't steam roll it in 10 minutes like every other WotLK heroic, and they had to actually use a fiber of their brain to complete it. Morons and the "gimmie gimmie" crowd like easy, brainless activities, which is why they cried so hard in the Cata heroics early on.
    People constantly got lost, the aggro radius of the circling drakes were unpredictable (and rue on you if you had aggroed one and dismounted your drakes) the bosses and trash packs were disconnected and the final boss was gimmicky without being exciting. It was an already long dungeon requiring an undue amount of investment time to learn a oneshot mechanic for non-appreciable rewards, especially when you compare it to the much more fluid, and much more well-designed, max level dungeons like Utgarde Pinnacle.

    Using the same art assets is still a rehash, no matter how you want to color it. Yes the story can be different, which much of them were, but stil... rehash.
    So then "rehashing" is bad because you attach a word to it that automatically makes it bad? Is that like "remodel" and "reskin" being whipped around as bad things without an ounce of context?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Every boss in MC aside from Rag is a rehash of other mobs. Almost every dungeons in TBC uses art assets from other dungeons. Every CoT dungeon/raid is just a rehash. Durnholde and Opening of the Dark Portal is 100% rehash from Vanilla.
    "It was just merely a set back" rehash.

    I see none of these listed in your OP, why is that?
    And don't forget that all but three models used for mounts in Burning Crusade were remodels of Vanilla WoW models (and for the record all raid/dungeon drops in BC were remodels,) BC introduced flying mounts, and the whole advent of "using assets to develop mounts that must be bought with real money" started in Burning Crusade.

    The simple answer: By rose-tinted nostalgia glasses reasoning, Burning Crusade can do no wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
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  20. #40
    The only thing on your list I'll agree on, because the rest is rubbish as far as I'm concerned, is Siege of Orgrimmar.

    I fucking HATE blowing up my own city, killing my own people (note, I am aware I've killed orcs before without a problem, but they weren't Kor'kron or General Nazgrim, Orc brothers who are part of my story and are my character's "friends" more or less) and obliterating my own, previously-not-insane faction leader.

    I admit I'm a bit biased, I thought the whole idea they had to turn Garrosh into a power-mad nut bar / Nazi / Genocidal Maniac was stupid but there you go.

    I hate, hate, hate attacking my own fucking capital. It's stupid, I dislike it so much I can't even see straight.

    Orgrimmar isn't my favorite city in the game world by any means, but I still live there and I'm just not cool with blowing it up.

    Yes I know this sounds like I take this far too seriously; I just dislike blowing up my capital - there are so many other opportunities for a great end-of-expansion raid and we get to annhilate the Horde capital (no, I wouldn't have wanted to do the Siege of Stormwind either, unless it was some good old guys on my server doing a fun raid on the faction leader and I have no beef with that when the Alliance does it either) Bah.

    Anyway, on topic - I don't have a beef with re-makes or re-visited locales, your post is a bit misleading - re-used or re-hashed to me is more like how long can they get away using the same enemy models and textures for all the raids; something they've done a moderately good job of avoiding in MoP and in general I think.
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