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  1. #41
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by majesta View Post
    Scholo used very little from the original. The newer one is an abomination in my opinion. I absolutely hate it and everything I found to be fun in the original is gone.
    My problems with the new scholomance aren't about the bosses (the bosses are fun,) but rather the streamlining and use of facadery. But I don't think that's why most people "dislike" the new one.

    I can say the same for Deadmines. My original guild had this thing where when someone would max level out we would get together and do a deadmines zerg and then go fishing off the boat inside. The new DM is trash. Mr. Smite. RIP
    New deadmines (the heroic version) is actually fun. Beyond the "character" of Mr. Smite and his one mechanic, the old bosses from Dead mines really have nothing behind them but nostalgia. The new bosses of deadmines have interesting mechanics and it doesn't in any way go against the "story" of the Defias.

    ZG and ZA were not well done. They just closed off some of the areas and threw some random bosses at you. The instances became so despised by people at the time as the random puggers would cause wipes for not paying attention or even caring to try. The time to complete them took too long so Blizzard came back and changed it up again so people would be willing to finish the dungeons. Any and all epicness of them died when the raids where removed.
    Again, the new bosses were fun. That you had bad groups that you ran with to do them shouldn't be a reflection on the dungeon itself. I had very few problems running ZA/ZG with random groups. Even did the bear run in a random PuG before it was even an achievement.

    Shadowfang Keep. As alliance I have fond memories of trying to get to that dungeon in vanilla. In fact that was half the challenge. So much PvP. Then there was the cool little things like the ghost soldiers lowering your awe weapon skill or sword and so forth. Made it a pretty cool experience. I am not a fan of the new bosses there. I am happy they didn't change the look of the place, would have been a travesty.
    The only reason I don't like new SFK is because they changed the story of the zone. VC, Scholo, and the new SM dungeons all keep the same story.

    I don't get why Blizzard has to replace the dungeons completely with this new garbage. They should at least put some bronze dragon flight NPC that allows them to go back in time and do the past version of the dungeons. Wouldn't be all that hard.

    Also Cata was the worst thing to happen to WoW besides flying mounts. Instead of having the 1-60 experience be about general story lines with some major story arc aspects everything is locked to that of the Cataclysm which is a horrible experience from the alliance side and makes leveling any toons through it painful. Now several expansions later, it will still be the same and I doubt Blizzard will ever spend the resources to change the world again because of how negatively perceived it was after the fact with Cata. I guess it is one of the things they are hoping will push people to just buy level 90 characters.
    The new leveling experience was necessary. "Kill 10 bears and collect their asses" for 60 levels might be fondly remembered, but don't let the nostalgia blind you. If you want a good shot of reality for Vanilla leveling... go to Silithus and see how much fun you have leveling there.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post

    Who asked for these dungeons to be redone? I never saw the playerbase asking for this. Although some of them are pretty cool, its still taking old content, and putting a fresh coat of paint over them.
    There´s your problem, you actually think that the posts on this site represent anything more than 0,1% of WoWs population. It doesn´t matter if someone was asking for it or not btw, looking at the sub numbers it´s fair to assume that all those that joined post ZG or post ZA didn´t experience it and that was probably in the millions. (not a few thousand like this site has)

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If you're assaulting the capital city of a faction, one would presume that you would not be presented suddenly with an entirely new urban environment.
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    How much did MoP rehash? Environments from Org, which is understandable when you're literally trying to topple the seat of power
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Dragon Soul had some re-used assets because they made sense. It took place, after all, in Wyrmrest Temple, the seat of power for all of the surviving dragonflights. ...

    SoO obviously has to take place in Orgrimmar for Christ's sake. Come on. You're invading the damn place. What, were they supposed to design a whole new Orgrimmar that no one has ever seen before and expected people to believe it?

    These are all perfect examples of how video game companies are able to succeed at what they do. Their target audience are just "yes men/women", poorly educated...fools. (not saying that anyone I quoted above are that, just speaking in terms).

    No, Dragon Soul and Origrimmar are not acceptable as end game raiding tiers. Writing that involves video games is always terrible, but the first step would be to create a story that doesn't involve the cheap use of old assets. Deathwing could have been amazing in his own raid instance. MoP could have been 1000x better without the ridiculousness that was Garrosh. WoD is looking to be ridiculous with a cockamamie time travel story (but it's not time travel!!).

    However, with the incredibly small amount of content we got in Mop (yes small, and I realize this because I'm not a video game dipshit). I'm all for Blizzard reusing everything in the game they can, if that is what they have to do to put out new content. ZA/ZG 5 mans are better than nothing.

    Now in some parts, I think rehashing is good. The revamped 5 mans are interesting spins on their, in my opinion, low quality originals. And like I said before, it's better than NO 5 mans.

    Scenario's are supposed to be reusing the zones. Before MoP was released Blizzard described scenario's as a replacement for group quests. If there was a group quest that told me to find 3 other players (suggested) and go to Greenstone Village, I would do that in the open world. In MoP they just instanced that group quest. That's fine.

    As the final tier, the BIG shebang to an expansion? No absolutely not. Only a sheep would excuse this.
    Last edited by ablib; 2014-06-17 at 10:49 PM.

  4. #44
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    @Darsithis

    The point is the whole idea behind scenarios being called content is really not content. It is a reuse of what they already did to distract the player base and fool them (us) into thinking they have a plethora of content. Its just plain lazy. Sure some reusing art, some reusing environments for new content is okay, but when it becomes excessive, it crosses the line. Players dont like that, and they dont want that.

    Also, when was the last time you ran a scenario anyway?
    A reuse isn't a rehash, as someone pointed out earlier. A scenario using Greenstone Village is an improvement upon the static and unchanging Greenstone Village you see while leveling.

    And I run them all the time, of course. They're super fast for the VP, especially when 50% capped (as I usually am since I am a 10 man raider). Most can be done in minutes.



  5. #45
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Why are you even surprised Jaylock? MC, very first raid. A cave (rehashed from loads of other caved) with no original models except Ragnaros. 4 Snake bosses with increasing amount of adds, corehound trash same model as 2nd boss and Ravagers and Firelords trash that we have seen outdoors before sharing a model with Garr and Geddon.

    But to humor you...funny how Naxx always figures into these. You would expect from responses that everyone has seen the place when it was a 40 man raid. One of the reasons it got re-hashed: It worked with WotLK AND really only a handful of people ever went there and even less defeated a boss.

    Dwarves, Elves and Humans, rehashed from Lord of the rings. The entire WoD world, rehashed from Outland.

    You can push it to any level. What is acceptable? Maybe everything that feels fresh and not rehashed? Like not every action film is the same film and not every love story is the same love story, just because some elements or basic storytelling pops up.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #46
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    These are all perfect examples of how video game companies are able to succeed at what they do. Their target audience are just "yes men/women", poorly educated...fools. (not saying that anyone I quoted above are that, just speaking in terms).

    No, Dragon Soul and Origrimmar are not acceptable as end game raiding tiers. Writing that involves video games is always terrible, but the first step would be to create a story that doesn't involve the cheap use of re-used assets. Deathwing could have been amazing in his own raid instance. MoP could have been 1000x better without the ridiculousness that was Garrosh. Although WoD is looking to be ridiculous with a cockamamie time travel story (but it's not time travel!!).

    However, with the incredibly small amount of content we got in Mop (yes small, and I realize this because I'm not a video game dipshit). I'm all for Blizzard reusing everything in the game they can, if that is what they have to do to put out new content. ZA/ZG 5 mans are better than nothing.

    Now in some parts, I think rehashing is good. The revamped 5 mans are interesting spins.

    Scenario's are supposed to be reusing the zones. Before MoP was released Blizzard described scenario's as a replacement for group quests. If there was a group quest that told me to find 3 other players (suggested) and go to Greenstone Village, I would do that in the open world. In MoP they just instanced that group quest. That's fine.

    As the final tier, the BIG shebang to an expansion? No absolutely not. Only a sheep would excuse this.
    None of that addresses the idea of "rehashing".

    Quality of the story aside, there is nothing wrong with the locations used for the raids and it's not a rehash to use them. It was a location that made sense in the confines of the story they wrote. If we want to argue quality, sure, there are definitely areas that could have been improved but that isn't what we're discussing.



  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    None of that addresses the idea of "rehashing".

    Quality of the story aside, there is nothing wrong with the locations used for the raids and it's not a rehash to use them. It was a location that made sense in the confines of the story they wrote. If we want to argue quality, sure, there are definitely areas that could have been improved but that isn't what we're discussing.
    People are excusing re-hashing for poor writing. That's not an excuse.

    That's two fails. Rehashing and poor writing.

  8. #48
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    .....to distract the player base and fool them (us) into thinking they have a plethora of content. Its just plain lazy. ...
    Ah..now you cleverly have manoeuvred the thread to a point where you can only win. Blizzard is lazy and players are stupid. They eat up everthing Blizzard throws at them and are sheep to not notice.

    Funny how this evil scheme works only for Blizzard and all the great new and upstanding MMOs with tons of content can neither capture enough players nor bind them

    But..again..all the evil mastermind of Blizzard and the stupidity of the players. Despite so many investigative souls like you (and other MMO regulars) constantly trying to save us.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  9. #49
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Who asked for these dungeons to be redone? I never saw the playerbase asking for this. Although some of them are pretty cool, its still taking old content, and putting a fresh coat of paint over them.
    Why are you under the impression that WoW belongs to the players? this isnt design by democracy. we dont get to vote on every design and feature in the game. it doesnt matter if millions were asking for these changes, it was a change the DESIGNERS wanted to make, regardless of your opinions or feelings about them.

    OT: "rehashing" as you put it, is fine in moderation, even almost necessity at times. DS was not one of those times. however, SoO was. the concept of raiding by PvE standards on a faction capital was really neat, and required rehashing the city to pull it off. dragon soul on the other hand was an example of how *not* to rehash something especially with all the porting around. that was just underwhelming.
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    I do realize that this is an internet forum full of morons, however in real life, no one questions me, people look to me for the answer, look up to me, trust me. To have dipshits on a video game forum question me, is insulting.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndra View Post
    Why are you under the impression that WoW belongs to the players? this isnt design by democracy. we dont get to vote on every design and feature in the game. it doesnt matter if millions were asking for these changes, it was a change the DESIGNERS wanted to make, regardless of your opinions about them.
    "This"ing for visibility. I'm tired of people thinking game design is a democracy.

  11. #51
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    People are excusing re-hashing for poor writing. That's not an excuse.

    That's two fails. Rehashing and poor writing.
    It's all subjective and nothing that can be discussed. I think there are aspects of Dragon Soul that could have been better, but unlike you I like SoO and I didn't hate DS. So...whatever.

    On an objective note, they're not rehashes in the confines of the story. I don't care what your opinion of the story is. It's an objective fact that SoO is not a rehash of Orgrimmar but rather a raid that takes place partly inside of areas of Orgrimmar that people know and that's only for what? 3 bosses out of 14? The first four take place in a new underground area beneath the Vale, the next three inside of Orgrimmar proper and the rest beneath an area of the city no one can visit outside of the raid.



  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It's all subjective and nothing that can be discussed. I think there are aspects of Dragon Soul that could have been better, but unlike you I like SoO and I didn't hate DS. So...whatever.

    On an objective note, they're not rehashes in the confines of the story. I don't care what your opinion of the story is. It's an objective fact that SoO is not a rehash of Orgrimmar but rather a raid that takes place partly inside of areas of Orgrimmar that people know and that's only for what? 3 bosses out of 14? The first four take place in a new underground area beneath the Vale, the next three inside of Orgrimmar proper and the rest beneath an area of the city no one can visit outside of the raid.
    The protectors are not under the vale, at least to my knowledge.

    Also, Nourshen was in a scenario including the area the raid boss takes place.
    Lewor responds to Barkloud regarding travel time, and we get this glorious quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    And where did these magical percentages come from? I didn't realise someone's ass also doubled as a calculator.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    On an objective note, they're not rehashes in the confines of the story.
    So this is ok? From here on out, it's ok to re-use zones as long as they fit the confines of the story?

    "Siege of Dalaran" - Jaina's Revenge 6.2

    "The Argent's Crusade" - Rexxar magically goes forward to another realm and takes up refuge in the icy north at the Argent Tournament grounds. 6.3

    "Naxxanar!" - 6.4

    Draenor is just primed and ready to be an expansion chock FULL of Burning Crusade assets, because the story brought us there!

    It's fine in bits and pieces. Scenario's are supposed to be instanced questing areas in the world. Re-used 5 mans are better than no five mans. Using the proto drake skeleton ad-infinitum is fine, as long as it's not a super rare drop, meta, or something purchased with real money, etc... BC had a bunch of re-hashed dungeons (all 3 in Coilfang Reservoir for example), that used to bug me, but with how incapable Blizzard is at making 5 mans now, I would welcome that back again in WoD.

    Siege has 4 bosses in re-used areas (Nazgrim is still in RFC), so it honestly wasn't that bad, however the lack of detail in the zones themselves in the last two wings, are disappointing to me. Dragon Soul was just 100% inexcusable.

    The final raids of BC and Wrath were 100 times more thrilling because prior to the patch release, we had never seen it before. I know Blizzard could do better, which is why Dragon Soul and Siege were a letdown.
    Last edited by ablib; 2014-06-17 at 11:14 PM.

  14. #54
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post

    On an objective note, they're not rehashes in the confines of the story. I don't care what your opinion of the story is. It's an objective fact that SoO is not a rehash of Orgrimmar but rather a raid that takes place partly inside of areas of Orgrimmar that people know and that's only for what? 3 bosses out of 14? The first four take place in a new underground area beneath the Vale, the next three inside of Orgrimmar proper and the rest beneath an area of the city no one can visit outside of the raid.
    ...and if there is anything that annoys me about SoO, then it is that there is still this peacefull SoO where I go to the AH during the day...and at night when I raid it is the besieged city.

    Would have expected us all to be exiled, live in fugitive camps or another city to stand in as a capital during the siege. THAT to me is immersion breaking. Using the assets of the city for a raid is fine. I mean..as you said, we are raiding freaking Orgrimmar. Why would it suddenly look like a totally new and different city?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    So this is ok? From here on out, it's ok to re-use zones as long as they fit the confines of the story?
    Interesting fact: Jaylock as the defender of TBC being the greatest x-pac since sliced bread neglected to include that SWP really is Silvermoon City re-hashed, but most of all..dare I say...Magister Terrace with scaling an epic 25 man fight (the most epic) into a 5 man encounter.

    If you want to piss on Blizzard as the master of re-hash, kill your idols.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  15. #55
    i dont think siege of orgrimar was a rehash. more like 25% with the exception of the locations of the 2nd 5th 6th and 7th boss ( blanking on names )location EVERY thing else was new .

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    So this is ok? From here on out, it's ok to re-use zones as long as they fit the confines of the story?
    I don't know why you think this is such a catastrophically bad thing.

  17. #57
    Super Moderator Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    So this is ok? From here on out, it's ok to re-use zones as long as they fit the confines of the story?
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    "Siege of Dalaran" - Jaina's Revenge 6.2

    "The Argent's Crusade" - Rexxar magically goes forward to another realm and takes up refuge in the icy north at the Argent Tournament grounds. 6.3

    "Naxxanar!" - 6.4

    Draenor is just primed and ready to be an expansion chock FULL of Burning Crusade assets, because the story brought us there!

    It's fine in bits and pieces. Scenario's are supposed to be instanced questing areas in the world. Re-used 5 mans are better than no five mans. Using the proto drake skeleton ad-infinitum is fine, as long as it's not a super rare drop, meta, or something purchased with real money, etc... BC had a bunch of re-hashed dungeons (all 3 in Coilfang Reservoir for example), that used to bug me, but with how incapable Blizzard is at making 5 mans now, I would welcome that back again in WoD.

    Siege has 4 bosses in re-used areas (Nazgrim is still in RFC), so it honestly wasn't that bad, however the lack of detail in the zones themselves in the last two wings, are disappointing to me. Dragon Soul was just 100% inexcusable.

    The final raids of BC and Wrath were 100 times more thrilling because prior to the patch release, we had never seen it before. I know Blizzard could do better, which is why Dragon Soul and Siege were a letdown.
    That's just hyperbole. Look, they produce tons of new content all of the time. The first few raids of MoP, for instance, were all new. Aside from Naxx, most of Wrath's raids/dungeons were also pretty damn new. Cata had plenty of new dungeons and raid instances, too, save for BWD and DS. TBC had great and interesting new dungeons and raids.

    You're all skipping over the fact that WoW has had 10 years of new, interesting content to enjoy and focusing only on the times they've gone back and touched on existing zones & locations as something so terrible.

    And as for Warlords - they've maintained (and if you've read the art panels you'd understand this) that they've only used the slightest pieces of Outland and TBC to shape Draenor. It's virtually all-new, from the ground up. There will be familiar locations as they existed in the past but that's fairly necessary if you're going to take place in roughly the same area.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    ...and if there is anything that annoys me about SoO, then it is that there is still this peacefull SoO where I go to the AH during the day...and at night when I raid it is the besieged city.

    Would have expected us all to be exiled, live in fugitive camps or another city to stand in as a capital during the siege. THAT to me is immersion breaking. Using the assets of the city for a raid is fine. I mean..as you said, we are raiding freaking Orgrimmar. Why would it suddenly look like a totally new and different city?
    Well that'd have been a great way to have immersion - Hordies moved to camps outside of the city while it was being invaded



  18. #58
    I am Murloc! Shampro's Avatar
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    Apperantly a character re-apearing is reashing. Word lost it's meaning a long time ago.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Interesting fact: Jaylock as the defender of TBC being the greatest x-pac since sliced bread neglected to include that SWP really is Silvermoon City re-hashed, but most of all..dare I say...Magister Terrace with scaling an epic 25 man fight (the most epic) into a 5 man encounter.

    If you want to piss on Blizzard as the master of re-hash, kill your idols.
    Thats not a fact. The whole premise of the Sunwell was to introduce players more to Blood Elf architecture, as well as lore. The Sunwell was the source of the Blood Elf's power and corruption. It was not silvermoon city, it was located in a completely different location, and is completely structured differently. It was new.

    Yeah, and the fact that they reused Kael'thas for a 5 man dungeon was the start of the idea that rehashes were okay. I excuse it though because hes a completely different model, and its a new 5 man dungeon different from any of the BC dungeons at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    And where did these magical percentages come from? I didn't realise someone's ass also doubled as a calculator.
    World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade
    See you in WoD!

  20. #60
    Bloodsail Admiral Tragedia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    SNIP
    And both Quel'danas and SWP look pretty much like Eversong Forest and Silvermoon. They were using the same art assets and everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneshot View Post
    I don't know why you think this is such a catastrophically bad thing.
    Because the world isn't supposed to change! Blizzturd has to make new stories but in places we haven't been before because that's lazy!
    What are we without the sky?

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