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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    If you're assaulting the capital city of a faction, one would presume that you would not be presented suddenly with an entirely new urban environment.
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    How much did MoP rehash? Environments from Org, which is understandable when you're literally trying to topple the seat of power
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    Dragon Soul had some re-used assets because they made sense. It took place, after all, in Wyrmrest Temple, the seat of power for all of the surviving dragonflights. ...

    SoO obviously has to take place in Orgrimmar for Christ's sake. Come on. You're invading the damn place. What, were they supposed to design a whole new Orgrimmar that no one has ever seen before and expected people to believe it?

    These are all perfect examples of how video game companies are able to succeed at what they do. Their target audience are just "yes men/women", poorly educated...fools. (not saying that anyone I quoted above are that, just speaking in terms).

    No, Dragon Soul and Origrimmar are not acceptable as end game raiding tiers. Writing that involves video games is always terrible, but the first step would be to create a story that doesn't involve the cheap use of old assets. Deathwing could have been amazing in his own raid instance. MoP could have been 1000x better without the ridiculousness that was Garrosh. WoD is looking to be ridiculous with a cockamamie time travel story (but it's not time travel!!).

    However, with the incredibly small amount of content we got in Mop (yes small, and I realize this because I'm not a video game dipshit). I'm all for Blizzard reusing everything in the game they can, if that is what they have to do to put out new content. ZA/ZG 5 mans are better than nothing.

    Now in some parts, I think rehashing is good. The revamped 5 mans are interesting spins on their, in my opinion, low quality originals. And like I said before, it's better than NO 5 mans.

    Scenario's are supposed to be reusing the zones. Before MoP was released Blizzard described scenario's as a replacement for group quests. If there was a group quest that told me to find 3 other players (suggested) and go to Greenstone Village, I would do that in the open world. In MoP they just instanced that group quest. That's fine.

    As the final tier, the BIG shebang to an expansion? No absolutely not. Only a sheep would excuse this.
    Last edited by ablib; 2014-06-17 at 10:49 PM.

  2. #42
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    @Darsithis

    The point is the whole idea behind scenarios being called content is really not content. It is a reuse of what they already did to distract the player base and fool them (us) into thinking they have a plethora of content. Its just plain lazy. Sure some reusing art, some reusing environments for new content is okay, but when it becomes excessive, it crosses the line. Players dont like that, and they dont want that.

    Also, when was the last time you ran a scenario anyway?
    A reuse isn't a rehash, as someone pointed out earlier. A scenario using Greenstone Village is an improvement upon the static and unchanging Greenstone Village you see while leveling.

    And I run them all the time, of course. They're super fast for the VP, especially when 50% capped (as I usually am since I am a 10 man raider). Most can be done in minutes.

  3. #43
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    These are all perfect examples of how video game companies are able to succeed at what they do. Their target audience are just "yes men/women", poorly educated...fools. (not saying that anyone I quoted above are that, just speaking in terms).

    No, Dragon Soul and Origrimmar are not acceptable as end game raiding tiers. Writing that involves video games is always terrible, but the first step would be to create a story that doesn't involve the cheap use of re-used assets. Deathwing could have been amazing in his own raid instance. MoP could have been 1000x better without the ridiculousness that was Garrosh. Although WoD is looking to be ridiculous with a cockamamie time travel story (but it's not time travel!!).

    However, with the incredibly small amount of content we got in Mop (yes small, and I realize this because I'm not a video game dipshit). I'm all for Blizzard reusing everything in the game they can, if that is what they have to do to put out new content. ZA/ZG 5 mans are better than nothing.

    Now in some parts, I think rehashing is good. The revamped 5 mans are interesting spins.

    Scenario's are supposed to be reusing the zones. Before MoP was released Blizzard described scenario's as a replacement for group quests. If there was a group quest that told me to find 3 other players (suggested) and go to Greenstone Village, I would do that in the open world. In MoP they just instanced that group quest. That's fine.

    As the final tier, the BIG shebang to an expansion? No absolutely not. Only a sheep would excuse this.
    None of that addresses the idea of "rehashing".

    Quality of the story aside, there is nothing wrong with the locations used for the raids and it's not a rehash to use them. It was a location that made sense in the confines of the story they wrote. If we want to argue quality, sure, there are definitely areas that could have been improved but that isn't what we're discussing.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    None of that addresses the idea of "rehashing".

    Quality of the story aside, there is nothing wrong with the locations used for the raids and it's not a rehash to use them. It was a location that made sense in the confines of the story they wrote. If we want to argue quality, sure, there are definitely areas that could have been improved but that isn't what we're discussing.
    People are excusing re-hashing for poor writing. That's not an excuse.

    That's two fails. Rehashing and poor writing.

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Sinndra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Who asked for these dungeons to be redone? I never saw the playerbase asking for this. Although some of them are pretty cool, its still taking old content, and putting a fresh coat of paint over them.
    Why are you under the impression that WoW belongs to the players? this isnt design by democracy. we dont get to vote on every design and feature in the game. it doesnt matter if millions were asking for these changes, it was a change the DESIGNERS wanted to make, regardless of your opinions or feelings about them.

    OT: "rehashing" as you put it, is fine in moderation, even almost necessity at times. DS was not one of those times. however, SoO was. the concept of raiding by PvE standards on a faction capital was really neat, and required rehashing the city to pull it off. dragon soul on the other hand was an example of how *not* to rehash something especially with all the porting around. that was just underwhelming.
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    I do realize that this is an internet forum full of morons, however in real life, no one questions me, people look to me for the answer, look up to me, trust me. To have dipshits on a video game forum question me, is insulting.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndra View Post
    Why are you under the impression that WoW belongs to the players? this isnt design by democracy. we dont get to vote on every design and feature in the game. it doesnt matter if millions were asking for these changes, it was a change the DESIGNERS wanted to make, regardless of your opinions about them.
    "This"ing for visibility. I'm tired of people thinking game design is a democracy.

  7. #47
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    People are excusing re-hashing for poor writing. That's not an excuse.

    That's two fails. Rehashing and poor writing.
    It's all subjective and nothing that can be discussed. I think there are aspects of Dragon Soul that could have been better, but unlike you I like SoO and I didn't hate DS. So...whatever.

    On an objective note, they're not rehashes in the confines of the story. I don't care what your opinion of the story is. It's an objective fact that SoO is not a rehash of Orgrimmar but rather a raid that takes place partly inside of areas of Orgrimmar that people know and that's only for what? 3 bosses out of 14? The first four take place in a new underground area beneath the Vale, the next three inside of Orgrimmar proper and the rest beneath an area of the city no one can visit outside of the raid.

  8. #48
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    It's all subjective and nothing that can be discussed. I think there are aspects of Dragon Soul that could have been better, but unlike you I like SoO and I didn't hate DS. So...whatever.

    On an objective note, they're not rehashes in the confines of the story. I don't care what your opinion of the story is. It's an objective fact that SoO is not a rehash of Orgrimmar but rather a raid that takes place partly inside of areas of Orgrimmar that people know and that's only for what? 3 bosses out of 14? The first four take place in a new underground area beneath the Vale, the next three inside of Orgrimmar proper and the rest beneath an area of the city no one can visit outside of the raid.
    The protectors are not under the vale, at least to my knowledge.

    Also, Nourshen was in a scenario including the area the raid boss takes place.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    On an objective note, they're not rehashes in the confines of the story.
    So this is ok? From here on out, it's ok to re-use zones as long as they fit the confines of the story?

    "Siege of Dalaran" - Jaina's Revenge 6.2

    "The Argent's Crusade" - Rexxar magically goes forward to another realm and takes up refuge in the icy north at the Argent Tournament grounds. 6.3

    "Naxxanar!" - 6.4

    Draenor is just primed and ready to be an expansion chock FULL of Burning Crusade assets, because the story brought us there!

    It's fine in bits and pieces. Scenario's are supposed to be instanced questing areas in the world. Re-used 5 mans are better than no five mans. Using the proto drake skeleton ad-infinitum is fine, as long as it's not a super rare drop, meta, or something purchased with real money, etc... BC had a bunch of re-hashed dungeons (all 3 in Coilfang Reservoir for example), that used to bug me, but with how incapable Blizzard is at making 5 mans now, I would welcome that back again in WoD.

    Siege has 4 bosses in re-used areas (Nazgrim is still in RFC), so it honestly wasn't that bad, however the lack of detail in the zones themselves in the last two wings, are disappointing to me. Dragon Soul was just 100% inexcusable.

    The final raids of BC and Wrath were 100 times more thrilling because prior to the patch release, we had never seen it before. I know Blizzard could do better, which is why Dragon Soul and Siege were a letdown.
    Last edited by ablib; 2014-06-17 at 11:14 PM.

  10. #50
    i dont think siege of orgrimar was a rehash. more like 25% with the exception of the locations of the 2nd 5th 6th and 7th boss ( blanking on names )location EVERY thing else was new .

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    So this is ok? From here on out, it's ok to re-use zones as long as they fit the confines of the story?
    I don't know why you think this is such a catastrophically bad thing.

  12. #52
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    So this is ok? From here on out, it's ok to re-use zones as long as they fit the confines of the story?
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    "Siege of Dalaran" - Jaina's Revenge 6.2

    "The Argent's Crusade" - Rexxar magically goes forward to another realm and takes up refuge in the icy north at the Argent Tournament grounds. 6.3

    "Naxxanar!" - 6.4

    Draenor is just primed and ready to be an expansion chock FULL of Burning Crusade assets, because the story brought us there!

    It's fine in bits and pieces. Scenario's are supposed to be instanced questing areas in the world. Re-used 5 mans are better than no five mans. Using the proto drake skeleton ad-infinitum is fine, as long as it's not a super rare drop, meta, or something purchased with real money, etc... BC had a bunch of re-hashed dungeons (all 3 in Coilfang Reservoir for example), that used to bug me, but with how incapable Blizzard is at making 5 mans now, I would welcome that back again in WoD.

    Siege has 4 bosses in re-used areas (Nazgrim is still in RFC), so it honestly wasn't that bad, however the lack of detail in the zones themselves in the last two wings, are disappointing to me. Dragon Soul was just 100% inexcusable.

    The final raids of BC and Wrath were 100 times more thrilling because prior to the patch release, we had never seen it before. I know Blizzard could do better, which is why Dragon Soul and Siege were a letdown.
    That's just hyperbole. Look, they produce tons of new content all of the time. The first few raids of MoP, for instance, were all new. Aside from Naxx, most of Wrath's raids/dungeons were also pretty damn new. Cata had plenty of new dungeons and raid instances, too, save for BWD and DS. TBC had great and interesting new dungeons and raids.

    You're all skipping over the fact that WoW has had 10 years of new, interesting content to enjoy and focusing only on the times they've gone back and touched on existing zones & locations as something so terrible.

    And as for Warlords - they've maintained (and if you've read the art panels you'd understand this) that they've only used the slightest pieces of Outland and TBC to shape Draenor. It's virtually all-new, from the ground up. There will be familiar locations as they existed in the past but that's fairly necessary if you're going to take place in roughly the same area.

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    ...and if there is anything that annoys me about SoO, then it is that there is still this peacefull SoO where I go to the AH during the day...and at night when I raid it is the besieged city.

    Would have expected us all to be exiled, live in fugitive camps or another city to stand in as a capital during the siege. THAT to me is immersion breaking. Using the assets of the city for a raid is fine. I mean..as you said, we are raiding freaking Orgrimmar. Why would it suddenly look like a totally new and different city?
    Well that'd have been a great way to have immersion - Hordies moved to camps outside of the city while it was being invaded

  13. #53
    Old God Shampro's Avatar
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    Apperantly a character re-apearing is reashing. Word lost it's meaning a long time ago.

  14. #54
    Banned Jaylock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Interesting fact: Jaylock as the defender of TBC being the greatest x-pac since sliced bread neglected to include that SWP really is Silvermoon City re-hashed, but most of all..dare I say...Magister Terrace with scaling an epic 25 man fight (the most epic) into a 5 man encounter.

    If you want to piss on Blizzard as the master of re-hash, kill your idols.
    Thats not a fact. The whole premise of the Sunwell was to introduce players more to Blood Elf architecture, as well as lore. The Sunwell was the source of the Blood Elf's power and corruption. It was not silvermoon city, it was located in a completely different location, and is completely structured differently. It was new.

    Yeah, and the fact that they reused Kael'thas for a 5 man dungeon was the start of the idea that rehashes were okay. I excuse it though because hes a completely different model, and its a new 5 man dungeon different from any of the BC dungeons at the time.

  15. #55
    Pandaren Monk Tragedia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    SNIP
    And both Quel'danas and SWP look pretty much like Eversong Forest and Silvermoon. They were using the same art assets and everything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arcaneshot View Post
    I don't know why you think this is such a catastrophically bad thing.
    Because the world isn't supposed to change! Blizzturd has to make new stories but in places we haven't been before because that's lazy!
    Black Lives Matter

  16. #56
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    Thats not a fact. The whole premise of the Sunwell was to introduce players more to Blood Elf architecture, as well as lore. The Sunwell was the source of the Blood Elf's power and corruption. It was not silvermoon city, it was located in a completely different location, and is completely structured differently. It was new.

    Yeah, and the fact that they reused Kael'thas for a 5 man dungeon was the start of the idea that rehashes were okay. I excuse it though because hes a completely different model, and its a new 5 man dungeon different from any of the BC dungeons at the time.
    It was still a rehash, and, in the true sense of the word: existing assets and characters improved in new or improved locations.

  17. #57
    who really cares if a model/zone is rehashed?

    SoO had some of the best raid bosses/mechanics ever in WoW.

    sure, after 7234872896729 months of raiding the place you want to cut your own eyes out because the place is boring and the fights are dull but on progression those fights were awesome

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystile View Post
    Yay another Jaylock thread with Guaranteed Replies.

    Dragon Soul was a bad raid, in environment and mechanics. The entire experience was poor.

    ZG was completely redone. The only thing that remained was the environment, which even then was still changed somewhat (no Bat area).

    ZA is similar to DS; same zone and mechanics. However it was still enjoyable (for awhile).

    Naxx was redone because of how few actually saw the content, and yes, it was a cheap cop out, but honestly it was a great starter raid.

    Scholo is completely different. Only the zone was reused, and even then (notice a theme yet?) it was changed.

    SFK was completely redone and given a heroic mode, nothing reused except the environment. Why would they change a classic dungeon instead of putting in a new one if it was going to be 100% different?

    VC (Deadmines) look at SFK, same shit.

    Siege of Orgrimmar?

    How you going to siege a place without going to it?

    Scenarios tell a story in a place where a quest line would be less helpful for the story. Their purpose is to tell the story (also for fast valor).

    Onyxia, this fucking red herring. It was redone as a bonus for their 6th(?) anniversary. You're welcome for getting a gift on Blizzard's day.

    BWD. Just because the bosses' names (Nefarian and Onyxia) are used does not, in any way, make them rehashed. This is a terrible attempt for your "argument."

    As for seeing original content? No, not by your standards, because the bosses are somewhat already in the game. Gul'dan? REHASHED GG BLIZZ. And so on.
    I agree with your entire post. And my only question is why the OP continually talks about what "we" find accaptable with WoW when he quit a long time ago and said he's not coming back.

  19. #59
    Immortal Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tragedia View Post
    Why do you have to be so negative all the time man!
    He's not negative. He's right and everyone else is obviously wrong.

  20. #60
    By OP's definition, every single reuse of an environment texture is a rehash, because you're seeing the exact same texture between zone A and zones G Q and V. Doesn't matter to me one way or another. I wouldn't have even seen Naxx in Wrath, had someone not been confident enough in my abilities to ask me to go with them. I have yet to see ZA, and don't care to. same goes for DS.

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