Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Azrile]

Erm, I'm pretty ignorant overall of this game but...how long did it take you to create that?

I mean...there are games with zero budget and folks working on them in their spare time without a budget that can create those assets in a matter of months...that's not necessarily very compelling for a game that's supposedly been in the works for roughly a decade...

Basically this. Anyone can download Unity for free and learn enough to make a map, create a UI, an inventory sytem and basic combat system in a few months working alone., Like I said earlier. Right now you could download Unity and probably have everything done tonight that ToA has shown so far, or maybe tomorrow night.

[XanwardSongsteel]

PRetty much Buyer Beware.

My studio is doing a Kickstarter very soon (This month) but before we would even consider that, we already have playable stuff, maps, music, on top of several smaller games we've already produced to show that there is actually some development power behind it.

Part of making a successful kickstarter is having credibility. These peopel had none, and it blows my mind that people donated more than a few bucks.

I wish you all the luck on your future Kickstarter!

And if you where a legit game developer of a legit company you wouldn't care what some random on mmo sites is spewing about your game that 99% of people here never heard of.

Never in my life have I seen a legit game developer register on a random site to defend his product.

To put it simple, nobody here even cares if your crap is a scam or not. You are clearly not a professional, that much is obvious.

I'm not here to defend my product. I'm here to have a constructive discussion. From my time of working at Burda:IC GmbH and Silverlode Interactive, I strongly feel that addressing audience concerns/thoughts is important.

Erm, I'm pretty ignorant overall of this game but...how long did it take you to create that?

I mean...there are games with zero budget and folks working on them in their spare time without a budget that can create those assets in a matter of months...that's not necessarily very compelling for a game that's supposedly been in the works for roughly a decade...

I can see how this would be a concern, however, it should be noted that the title took a four year hiatus between the closure of Shadowpool and the opening of Forged Chaos, and virtually everything began from scratch. Thank you for bringing this up

Man, that is what had me so angry this afternoon. Shards Online, maybe you don´t like the gameplay, maybe you don´t like the art.. but it is a real, honest to goodness game that people were playing and a lot of people were having fun playing.

Games like that are failing kickstarters because we have games like Trials of Ascension that put up a kickstarter with absolutely no gameplay at all... just a video ofa dev sitting on a couch talking about his dreams and asking for $800,000.

Even 8 months after their kickstarter, the only thing they can show is something anyone can make with free Unity in a couple hours.

It is just annoying that games like Shards Online and ToA get lumped together as ´crowdfunding´ games.

Our updates as well as our opening video included gameplay footage. And I agree that it is a pity that Shards Online failed their Kickstarter. I played in their open alpha, and I found it quite enjoyable. It really manages to capture the essence of UO, and I like the art style. That said, I'm not certain you can say that ToA is the reason why their Kickstarter failed. I wish their studio the best, and I hope that they find success

[Edge-]

Except when you buy a game, you pay for the game. When you donate to a dev, you could not get anything. All regardless of quality.

Indeed, there's no guarantee of anything. It's a gamble. That's why it's of the utmost importance to do some serious research on whom you are giving money to before you give them money. Just as it's important to research any product before purchasing it, at least any product you spend any kind of meaningful (for you) amount of money on.

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I can see how this would be a concern, however, it should be noted that the title took a four year hiatus between the closure of Shadowpool and the opening of Forged Chaos, and virtually everything began from scratch. Thank you for bringing this up

But again, and this is totally the skeptic in me, that's apparently 6 years (unless my basic math fails me, or I'm totally missing something) in which a group of 3 (?) developers did what essentially takes a few people a matter of months to do in their off time. Or alternatively, you worked on this for 6 years and took four years off, in which case what exactly did you accomplish in those 6 years that provided any value for those who donated to you?

Which again, brings up the serious question of what happened to all the original stuff that people spent money on? Did it get trashed? If so, why should we believe that anything meaningful will come from a second round of funding, given that the first round apparently yielded no meaningful results? Why could nothing from the original work be repurposed? Why was not more work done in the apparent years that this has been worked on to show possible investors/donators that you are actually serious about this project and are willing to invest a ton of your own time and effort into it for free, to prove that you care about this project and not just our money?

[Azrile]

Because it's a bullshit pyramid scheme whether you make a legit/fun product out of it or not. Kickstarter at least refunds your money if the goal isn't met but your customers paying you for something you haven't made yet is a bullshit scheme anyway you want to slice it. Steam early access bullshit is even worse.

If you can't find funding for your game, then maybe you should have kept your day job.

yes and no. I think without KS you would just have a lot of half-assed games being released and then the developers using the money to fix the game later. Like it or not, that is kinda the fault of Unity. Unity is no harder to operate than Microsoft Word. It allows almost anyone ( apparently not the ToA devs though) the ability to download it and make a semi-viable game. Everyone and there mother would be making games and there would be too many of them to even consider a developers reputation. And as you said, sites like Steam cannot be trusted to act as ´judges´ over what is a finished game.

KS at least puts a bar in place that games can measure up against. Some of the early ones were high quality games, and by funding them, you knocked a year off of their development time. KS served their purpose. But now they are are all just failing because devs like from ToA just flood it with non-viable games. If someone spends 3 years building a very good game, then goes on KS and says, here, play this demo.. if this KS succeeds, I can quit my job and have this game ready next year, if not, it will be another 3 years. If people play the demo and love the game, then it is a win-win for both sides.

But as an above poster said, you need to have your own skin in the game... you need to have invested that year or two of hard work first. These clowns did nothing.. just set up a prefab website and ran a kickstarter and still a year later have nothing ready that even make you think they are even making a game at all.

[Surfd]

This is not Richard Garriot or McQuad we are talking about.

Sorry, but now you owe me a new keyboard. Cause I burst out laughing and spit Rootbeer all over mine when I read that.

Have you been following McQuaid's latest exploits on his most recent Kickstarter scam attempt. Sure, he had a lot more to show regarding Pantheon development, but in the end his kickstarter failed miserably, he has resorted to selling forum access to their "website", and has appearently somehow managed to pay himself a 6 month salary + bonuses advance for his role in getting nostalgic everquest fans to throw money at him with almost no hope of ever actually seeing a product come out of it.

[Tech614]

I'm not here to defend my product. I'm here to have a constructive discussion. From my time of working at Burda:IC GmbH and Silverlode Interactive, I strongly feel that addressing audience concerns/thoughts is important.

So you worked at 2 "publishers" and I use that word lightly since they are barely even legit companies who have done nothing but put shovel ware pay 2 win games on the market?

Not making yourself sound anymore legit there.

[Edge-]

Sorry, but now you owe me a new keyboard. Cause I burst out laughing and spit Rootbeer all over mine when I read that.

Have you been following McQuaid's latest exploits on his most recent Kickstarter scam attempt. Sure, he had a lot more to show regarding Pantheon development, but in the end his kickstarter failed miserably, he has resorted to selling forum access to their "website", and has appearently somehow managed to pay himself a 6 month salary + bonuses advance for his role in getting nostalgic everquest fans to throw money at him with almost no hope of ever actually seeing a product come out of it.

Not to mention he took a $40k "advance" from the meager $150k-ish that the team crowdfunded on the site, before paying anyone else. Which prompted his "employees" to bail on him and for them to be replaced by "volunteers" to work on the game.

[Azrile]

Our updates as well as our opening video included gameplay footage. And I agree that it is a pity that Shards Online failed their Kickstarter. I played in their open alpha, and I found it quite enjoyable. It really manages to capture the essence of UO, and I like the art style. That said, I'm not certain you can say that ToA is the reason why their Kickstarter failed. I wish their studio the best, and I hope that they find success

um.. ok. like i said to the lady here. Everything you have on your website videos is something that she could do by tomorrow night if she started downloading Unity right now. The default unity character standing in the middle of default unity art assets is not ´gameplay´ footage. The first video is even LESS than what she could do because you guys somehow managed to break the camera so you couldn´t even see the whole default unity character. If she didn´t open the camera controller in Unity, her ´gameplay´ video would be even more impressive because she would be able to use the camera properly.

Your KS starter didn´t hurt Shards, the combination of all of the kickstarters LIKE and including yours hurt Shards. You ( and I mean collectively all the KS con artists) have turned KS into a place where devs can develop their game for 2 years, and then finish it faster with some fundraising help. Now when people think of a KS project, they think it is some guy with a design written on a napkin asking for $800,000 for a game that has not even been started.

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Sorry, but now you owe me a new keyboard. Cause I burst out laughing and spit Rootbeer all over mine when I read that.

Have you been following McQuaid's latest exploits on his most recent Kickstarter scam attempt. Sure, he had a lot more to show regarding Pantheon development, but in the end his kickstarter failed miserably, he has resorted to selling forum access to their "website", and has appearently somehow managed to pay himself a 6 month salary + bonuses advance for his role in getting nostalgic everquest fans to throw money at him with almost no hope of ever actually seeing a product come out of it.

yeah, I threw that in as a joke. Even RG has gotten pretty iffy since TR. But there is some truth in it. If RG or McQuad started a Kickstarter tonight, despite everything that has happened, they would have 50k again.

[Surfd]

Not to mention he took a $40k "advance" from the meager $150k-ish that the team crowdfunded on the site, before paying anyone else. Which prompted his "employees" to bail on him and for them to be replaced by "volunteers" to work on the game.

Appearently their website is now asking for submissions for a new CEO. Seems Brad wants to change job titles to CCO (Chief Creative Officer).

As someone on another forum I am on quite aptly put it: "If I got hired, my first act as CEO would be to fire Brad."

Useless sack needs to get out of the industry before he completely destroys what little remaining good faith he still has (of course, all things considered, there will probably always be enough psychoticly nostalgic EQ fans out there willing to throw cash at him so he can slap them with his "Vision").

[Azrile]

Not to mention he took a $40k "advance" from the meager $150k-ish that the team crowdfunded on the site, before paying anyone else. Which prompted his "employees" to bail on him and for them to be replaced by "volunteers" to work on the game.

The problem is that if you want to be an indie game developer you have to live like one He has been living the good life for too long to be an indie developer. Go to the Unity forums or the Hero Engine forums.. those are the guys that busting their butts, adding all the features of of an MMO to a game, not sleeping and doing it after work.

Like I keep telling our ´developer´ here. There is no reason ToA needs money at all.

Unity - free
Blender/3dsMax - free
Gimp - free

If these guys really had any type of programming or art skills, they would be like the guys on the HE or Unity forums and would have all the main features of an MMO cranked out in 2-3 months. The tools are free to build a very basic MMO with inventory, combat, a UI, some creature models... Which is why I do not understand why after a year, this team of 3 ( or 5?) devs has not produced anything ingame. The only artwork I have seen is a single building which they said they contracted someone to make.

After you have all that basic stuff done, then you start building the things that make your game unique, and at the same time you continue to add models and animations (which take a lot of time).

[unholytestament]

Guy guys guys, a thread where the actual person involved with said thing posts in the thread.

I need a drink of something strong and some popcorn, best thread 2014.

Of all time.

ALL TIME!

I cobbled more together for Morrowind mods when I was in high school than these guys have in 10/6/whatever years with a shit ton more money than I ever got.

[Ergar]

This thread has been highly amusing so far.

Please continue.

[Azrile]

Of all time.

ALL TIME!

I cobbled more together for Morrowind mods when I was in high school than these guys have in 10/6/whatever years with a shit ton more money than I ever got.

I want to have a contest. who can download Unity and ´recreate´ everything ToA has done so far in the quickest time. My guess is anyone who modded another game, used the original Neverwinter Nights or photoshop could do it in under 4 hours. In my situation ( laptop in a hotel), it would probably take me longer to download Unity than actually create what they had made.

[Edge-]

Appearently their website is now asking for submissions for a new CEO. Seems Brad wants to change job titles to CCO (Chief Creative Officer).

Which is awesome, and he should have done long ago. Brad seems to be great as a creative guy who has no managerial responsibilities. He's fine as an "idea man", but the second he seems to have to manage anyone else, everything goes to hell.

[Azrile]

But again, and this is totally the skeptic in me, that's apparently 6 years (unless my basic math fails me, or I'm totally missing something) in which a group of 3 (?) developers did what essentially takes a few people a matter of months to do in their off time. Or alternatively, you worked on this for 6 years and took four years off, in which case what exactly did you accomplish in those 6 years that provided any value for those who donated to you?

Which again, brings up the serious question of what happened to all the original stuff that people spent money on? Did it get trashed? If so, why should we believe that anything meaningful will come from a second round of funding, given that the first round apparently yielded no meaningful results? Why could nothing from the original work be repurposed? Why was not more work done in the apparent years that this has been worked on to show possible investors/donators that you are actually serious about this project and are willing to invest a ton of your own time and effort into it for free, to prove that you care about this project and not just our money?

They are never trying to even make a game. Their entire goal is to make a demo video because they think that is the reason their KS failed. The problem is that they can´t actually program or create anything, so while they may be able to piece together a demo video ( Unity is very easy)... then people are going to say.. wait, it took you 2+ years, with 5 developers, fundraising back in 2004, fundraising again on your website that already raised $50k last year... and in all that time, with all those devs and all that money you were able to create a demo video that an amateur can make in 2 months using Unity. There are probably 500 projects going on in Unity right now from sole-person developers who have raised $0 which will have more content than anything ToA will be able to produce.

This is a con game, and they weren´t smart enough to realize that thousands and thousands of people use Unity, so when they put up their little videos it was easy to tell that they didn´t actually create a game at all, they just did a few hours of playing with Unity. If you never used Unity, then sure, you might be impressed with the grass moving and the pretty graphics... but again, everyone that ever used Unity knows that is all default stuff Unity gives you for free and is in your game as soon as you start it up the first time.

Wait until they put up their next kickstarter and we get their ´demo´ passed around to others using Unity to develop games.... and they start bragging about their huge dev team with loads of experience and they put out another press release about $50k raised. There will be hundreds of Unity developers showing off what they have done, with 1 person and no money in a few months.

[Deleted]

Since Occulus Rift people should know that there is no safety in kickstarter projects. At the end it's modern gambling, if people support anything thats really worth it.

[Frolk]

If something/someone dosnt got an playable alpha/demo u dont give it money
This is stupid people being exploited

[zealo]

Since Occulus Rift people should know that there is no safety in kickstarter projects. At the end it's modern gambling, if people support anything thats really worth it.

Oculus VR is a real company actually doing something, its not really a good example of a cashgrab hit and run.

[Frozenbeef]

I'm more concerned about what kind of idiot would willingly give them money :S

[Deleted]

Oculus VR is a real company actually doing something, its not really a good example of a cashgrab hit and run.

Except that kickstarters helped them to get the money to develop it, and never will get it back after facebook acquired it.

There was a lot of rage about the facebook deal.