If there's any frustration, it's probably with the restated comments requesting other theory sites, when there isn't a reason for there to be more than one.
Last edited by Kael; 2014-06-20 at 10:19 PM.
I'm not saying we need to answer all of the questions I outlined, those may not even be the most important questions to answer. All I'm saying is saying we don't need more theorycrafting as coldkil did is reflective of a mindset toward theorycrafting that is both prevalent and short-sighted. Part of this is a community issue, we have done such a good job convincing people that theorycrafting has all answers that subconciously many people seem to have decided that if theorycrafting isn't currently providing an answer on something it isn't worth discussing. The other, and I think larger issue is the lack of a good home for these discussions, EJ effectively died for rogues during MoP and the discussions that hopefully would have yielded at least insight if not answers into these questions mostly vanished or at the very least spread out across several different sites without a lot of dialogue in between and we as a community are worse for it.
That's fair, mostly. We do still get some questions running about the means of optimizing our damage on specific encounters/events, and we sometimes can rig our tools to provide useful answers, but you're also right that we could probably be doing more. A lot of our current "theorycraft" about specific encounters has been based on trial and error results and some Sims/ShC settings altered to find answers based on those (mostly the Siegecrafter belt, this tier). It's true that we don't dive too deeply into some questions, like whether or not we can math out the results of picking combat or assassination on H Garrosh.
The other side of it, though, is that we've still got the tools, and we have both EJ and MMO-C -- there are still people in these communities (for MMO-C, you, shadowboy, Pathal and Ryme in particular come to mind) who are often willing and able to work on finding the math for the specific questions that are compelling enough to pursue. We need someone to actually ask the questions, and want deeper answers than something "good enough" for getting through the end of the heroic tier (which, in fairness, our current level of understanding is quite adequate for). I know you (as well as others) have done a lot of work heading up the interests of current roguework and updating tools, but there's just less visible media (to my eyes, no offense meant) than when Aldriana was constantly campaigning for changes and cataloging all of the oddities of the class. From there, it's not surprising that, without a... champion, if you will, that the least popular class with very few changes has seen theorycrafting become somewhat stagnant. We can revive it at any time, but it will take either a community response or a figurehead, realistically.
What would be effective are more robust log parsers that are tailored to specific specs. I think a companion tool to simc could be a log parser that spots mistakes *based on the default simc priority queue.* One could also guess that simc authors could use information from this to better model the player skill "feature" of simc.
For all this to happen what WoW's logging really needs to do more effectively is express combo point gains. The in-game combat logger needs to explicitly log combo point gains.
Just to clear up some points i maybe explained in the worng way - i basically agree with the fact we're never finished with theorycrafting and that there are a lot of things thant we have not even considered in many environments; still a purely math discussion has a vey niche audience, especially with the situation the rogue class is in.
Fierydemise says the truth - i have a short-sighted view of what theorycrafting represents, most of it depending on me not having the skills to follow it. I can understand the reasoning behind the theory and apply them in practice, but i need someone to explain them to me. That's why i stick to writing guides, that's my humble level of skills.
What can i bring on the table is just my long experience as rogue player.
What i see is a concurrency of two trends - one being theorycrafters in first place losing interest on discussions that rarely move away from "standard" models; the second is players that just look at numbers being more and more equal between each other, so again losing interest in a discussion that brings them not big improvements (for whatever reason).
When i say that we don't need more theorycrafting, it's mainly referred ar Blizzard's work on rogues - theoir goal is to make stats more playstyle defining but performing pretty much all equal; the same can be said for specs, and damn they're doing a good work. The downside is that they're flattening the class to a point that they're actively killing theorycrafters' work - when times ago people was all about "read the sticky and gather some knowledge" now it's mostly "well, whatever". Without an audience, i don't know how many people is willing to keep up the hard work, and i think everyone sees the outcome.
Theorycrafting is exciting when you find that changing your rotation has a major impact on your output. It isn't when you discover that you can ditch an entire ability from your already dull rotation and basically do the work aswell as before.
Sorry if i'm not more helpful; i'm jut a simple man and i don't have the best writing skills so i hope i explained myself well enough.
You are a cool guy Coldkil.
As fierydemise has pointed out, there are many things related to end-game raiding that could be expanded on in the Rogue community. But there might just be too small of a crowd for it to blossom.
There used to be a few good sites, roguerogue.com with Akrios and oneroguesjourney.com with Zaltu come to mind, but they've both been out of commission since before the launch of Cata I believe
couple of good threads on the EU rogue forums
bit of discusion between fellow top rogues in there worth a read would be nice to get them rolling with some more discusion
Another thing with rogues is. there is very little room for good decisionmaking. The current state of combat is more or less: aslong as you are hitting buttons your fine, if you stop and think for a second you're screwed. And even if you manage to plan those tiny things you can do ahead, the gain is minimal and is overshadowed by RNG if you want to evaluete logs.
For theory crafting to be usefull there need to be options you could compare (we acctualy dont have much options in our gameplay, even less if you want to call them resonable) or decisions within your kit, and again most of them arent even worth looking into.