1. #1

    Question Windfury and Multistrike

    I just want to hear people's thoughts on multistrike, when they were procs released for SoO I thought to my self, hang on, people are getting a windfury style effect.

    Now it's moving more baseline, whats your opinion on multistrike? Does it take away some of the prestige of one of enhancements shamans greatest ever spells?

    I hear talks about the hidden CD being taken away, but do you feel they could do more with windfury?

  2. #2
    Sounds exciting having those two combined. Lots of rng involved getting a proc with 6 multistrikes, with the majority of these 9 hits being crits, but the potential...dayum. How often those kind of procs will happen will depend on both our haste, crit and multistrike, so the better our gear.../drool. How good/great multistrike will be will depend on if and what it can proc also. I guess EotE or MSW wont be proccable by it, but maybe flurry?... Not that I believe we'll be uptime starved...

    I guess it does kind of feel like distributing wf to others, but then again, ele mastery would be the same. And for both classic and tbc, our biggest support buisness was provoding wf for others. Changing wf just to be unique again, but losing the features we grew to love, probably not the best idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  3. #3
    Multistrike does double-dip on crit, but that applies to everybody with strong burst. Enhance WF burst is completely random; a crit pyroblast with the +25% damage from being instant will deal a huge amount of damage, and fire will have very high crit chances. Then that creates a pyroblast DoT and an ignite DoT based upon the initial crit value, and each tick of each can multistrike. And then they can Combustion to deal a bit of damage and combine all those DoTs into yet another DoT, each tick of which can crit.

    What I'm getting at here is the capacity for very high burst damage from a single skill is not at all limited to Enhance. Fire is a great example, but there's also Destro chaos bolt, SMF execute, shadow devouring plague, 4 stack arcane missiles, etc.

    The problem with windfury and shaman imbues in general is that they proc randomly based upon weapon attacks. We have no control over them. This leads to a fair bit of enhance damage being essentially passive; around 23% in T16 (not counting searing totem or searing flames). That's nothing compared to the reigning champion of passive damage, assassination rogues, at 39%. But it's still higher than I would like.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2014-06-18 at 03:08 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Multistrike does double-dip on crit, but that applies to everybody with strong burst. Enhance WF burst is completely random; a crit pyroblast with the +25% damage from being instant will deal a huge amount of damage, and fire will have very high crit chances. Then that creates a pyroblast DoT and an ignite DoT based upon the initial crit value, and each tick of each can multistrike. And then they can Combustion to deal a bit of damage and combine all those DoTs into yet another DoT, each tick of which can crit.

    What I'm getting at here is the capacity for very high burst damage from a single skill is not at all limited to Enhance. Fire is a great example, but there's also Destro chaos bolt, SMF execute, shadow devouring plague, 4 stack arcane missiles, etc.

    The problem with windfury and shaman imbues in general is that they proc randomly based upon weapon attacks. We have no control over them. This leads to a large portion of enhance damage being essentially passive.
    I still wish they would give us a way to force WF to proc, but causing it to go on an ICD of maybe 6s. This way you can force burst when needed and not rely on RNG (quick add switches come to mind), but it's not the go-to way of playing to force the WF all the time.

    I didn't really even think about multistrike as giving WF to people until I read this thread, so I guess I'm not concerned about it :P WF is still special kind of cool! I'm excited for WF proccing multistrike.. and perhaps that multistrike proccing WF if possible

  5. #5
    Don't believe this has been confirmed, but I'm pretty sure multistrikes won't proc windfury. The implications of that would be extreme.

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    3,924
    Crit will still be the preferred stat for Burst(apart from abilities that are always Crits(Dragon Roar, Chaos Bolt, Lava Burst). Multi-strike is good for those abilities if you seek a damage variance similar to Crit.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Don't believe this has been confirmed, but I'm pretty sure multistrikes won't proc windfury. The implications of that would be extreme.
    Probably not, but one can hope.. :P But even WF proccing multistrike (shouldnt be any issues with this?) sounds pretty sweet too.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Crit will still be the preferred stat for Burst(apart from abilities that are always Crits(Dragon Roar, Chaos Bolt, Lava Burst). Multi-strike is good for those abilities if you seek a damage variance similar to Crit.
    Not necessarily. 1% multistrike is obviously worth less than 1% crit, but multistrikes can independently crit, so which stat is preferred for burst depends on their rating conversions. The devs have said that multistrike will be much cheaper than crit.

    Also both stats are less valuable the more of them you stack; 1% crit is a 1% damage increase going from 0% to 1%, but a much smaller damage increase going from 50% to 51%. Same deal for multistrike. So you will want to get both, but since multistrike will be cheaper it will diminish faster.

    It's actually somewhat complex.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Also both stats are less valuable the more of them you stack; 1% crit is a 1% damage increase going from 0% to 1%, but a much smaller damage increase going from 50% to 51%. Same deal for multistrike.
    Please show your working.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by flak View Post
    Please show your working.
    I basically did. Think about it for a minute.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Multistrike does double-dip on crit, but that applies to everybody with strong burst. Enhance WF burst is completely random; a crit pyroblast with the +25% damage from being instant will deal a huge amount of damage, and fire will have very high crit chances. Then that creates a pyroblast DoT and an ignite DoT based upon the initial crit value, and each tick of each can multistrike. And then they can Combustion to deal a bit of damage and combine all those DoTs into yet another DoT, each tick of which can crit.

    What I'm getting at here is the capacity for very high burst damage from a single skill is not at all limited to Enhance. Fire is a great example, but there's also Destro chaos bolt, SMF execute, shadow devouring plague, 4 stack arcane missiles, etc.

    The problem with windfury and shaman imbues in general is that they proc randomly based upon weapon attacks. We have no control over them. This leads to a fair bit of enhance damage being essentially passive; around 23% in T16 (not counting searing totem or searing flames). That's nothing compared to the reigning champion of passive damage, assassination rogues, at 39%. But it's still higher than I would like.
    Ignite does not Multistrike, it benefits from other spells,that multistrike and cause Ignite, but not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    Crit will still be the preferred stat for Burst(apart from abilities that are always Crits(Dragon Roar, Chaos Bolt, Lava Burst). Multi-strike is good for those abilities if you seek a damage variance similar to Crit.
    Multistrike will be adjusted to have less rating per percentage than other statistics so that it isn't necessarily the least desired stat. Let's say that 3% Multistrike is = 1% Crit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by flak View Post
    Please show your working.
    Shouldn't need working if you've played the game long enough, you can pretty much witness that it won't be that much of an increase as you gain more of said stat. Want more damage you need more rating depending on your current rating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chubathingy View Post
    But anyway it's OK to be jelly of the tallest midget.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by shamantime View Post
    Ignite does not Multistrike, it benefits from other spells,that multistrike and cause Ignite, but not the other way around.
    You're right, thanks for the correction. The pyroblast DoT can multistrike, though.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    4,152
    Quote Originally Posted by flak View Post
    Please show your working.
    Its like this- Every 1% of crit will increase your base dps by 1%. So, if you do 100 dps without any crit, adding 1% extra crit will increase your dps to 101, and so on- 20% extra crit increases your dps to 120, 50% increases to 150, ect.

    However, the overall VALUE of it decreases over time. For instance, going from 100-101 dps is a bigger relative increase (1% increase) then going from 140-141 dps (a .95% or so increase). The same applies for Haste, Mastery, MS, Versatility.. However, the diminshing relative value of the stat is so tiny and insignificant that it barely has any effect on the value of the stat itself- so, while going from 10-11% crit DOES have more dps value then going from 99-100% crit, its only a very, VERY slight amount more.

    Its one of the reasons that most specs tend to want to evenly stack stats rather then going all down in one stat, and why stat ratings vary so much with gear. If you have 20%, and crit of 50%, you will probably get more dps by taking haste from 20-21% then you would from taking haste from 50-51%.

    Of course, this all is changing up next expansion- Haste is becoming cheaper compared to now, Multi-Strike/versatility added, ect.

    And yes, as it stands, MS is equivalent to Crit for dps purposes. You can either get 100% MS, or 60% crit chance with x rating.


    As for the thing of it...

    ATM, Elemental Shamans have the GREATEST difference in damage done swings- Lets take a Lighting Bolt. It does 1k damage baseline. Now, Elemental has the 50% extra crit damage, so they crit with the lightning bolt, and it does 2.5k damage. They also have mastery, so that shoots out, dealing 800 baseline damage, and crits, and now does 2k damage (4.5k damage total). Echo procs off the first lightning bolt, and crits, so thats an extra 2.5k damage (7k total). It also does mastery, which also crits, so thats an additional 2k damage (9k total).
    Shamans can potentially do 800% of their normal damage in one cast, as RNG calls for it.

    On the other hand, lets take a destro warlock. Destro Warlocks have the LOWEST damage variance of all specs. Incinerate, for instance, can only ever do 100% of additional damage- If it normally hits for 1k counting mastery, then it can crit for 2k. Thats it. And you have Chaos Bolt. With Chaos Bolt, you can 100% predict the damage it will do based off your current stats. If it is going to do 100k damage, it WILL do 100k damage, always.

    With the addition of Multi-strike, blizz is taking that RNG of Elemental, and adding a bit of it to all classes. Now, Destro Warlocks can do up to 60% extra damage with Chaos Bolts, depending on RNG. Everyone else can do up to 320% of normal damage with a single hit. Elemental Shamans, of course, since EotE has been removed, can do (2.5k (crit) +2k (overload crit) +750 (ms crit) +750 (2nd ms crit) + 600 (overload MS crit) +600 (2nd overload MS crit) +600 (original MS overload crit) +600 *2nd original MS overlad crit)), for a total of 8400 damage possible from a single Lightning Bolt.

    So, current model- Shamans can do a potential 800% of damage in one cast, all other classes can only do potential 200% of damage in one cast, various masterys notwithstanding.
    New Model- Shamans can do a potential 740% of damage in one cast, all other classes can do a potential 320% damage in one cast.

    This means that shamans average can be tuned higher then previously, as all other classes are closer to shamans potential max RNG dps then before.

    Also, if I remember correctly, Overload can NOT proc from things that proc Overload. So no Overload from an Echo of an Overload, and no Overload from a MS of an Overload.

    Man, it gets confusing when you need a tree to get a sense of maximum number of procs.. Let me see...

    --------------------- Lightning Bolt
    -----v------------------------ v------------------------v
    Overload------------------MS----------------------MS
    v--------v---------------------v-----------------------v
    MS-----MS -------------Overload---------------Overload
    ----------------------------v----v-------------------v------v
    ---------------------------MS---MS---------------MS----MS
    I think thats the way it is anyway...
    Last edited by Raugnaut; 2014-06-19 at 08:43 PM.
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •