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  1. #1

    Paladin Aura revamp

    I was curious about the idea of re implementing paladin auras into WoW. In the past, blizzard had translated Diablo 2 spells into Warcraft 3, so I had thought the crusader has been such a fun character to play in Diablo3, why not try to use the law spells as inspiriation?

    Heres where I'm stuck at: the overall pruning has gutted a lot of unique utilities from every class (the really old retribution aura used to increase attack speed, skull and demoralizing banner, stormlash totem, some of the debuffs are being pruned too)- a lot that passively increases everyone's dps is gone. The justification for changing devotion aura and gutting the old auras was also blizzard doesnt want direct passive buffs to everyone's armor and magic resistance.

    I had thought that maybe seals should be revamped to provide selfpassive effects, but through judgement triggers brief auras.

    What sort of aura effects can be brought into the game, but not directly boost dps or defense of other players (hence "force" groups to take a paladin for this gimmick?)
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2014-06-28 at 03:50 AM.

  2. #2
    Epic! Gracin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celebhil View Post
    I was curious about the idea of re implementing paladin auras into WoW. In the past, blizzard had translated Diablo 2 spells into Warcraft 3, so I had thought the crusader has been such a fun character to play in Diablo3, why not try to use the law spells as inspiriation?

    Heres where I'm stuck at: the overall pruning has gutted a lot of unique utilities from every class (the really old retribution aura used to increase attack speed, skull and demoralizing banner, stormlash totem, some of the debuffs are being pruned too)- a lot that passively increases everyone's dps is gone. The justification for changing devotion aura and gutting the old auras was also blizzard doesnt want direct passive buffs to everyone's armor and magic resistance.

    I had thought that maybe seals should be revamped to provide selfpassive effects, but through judgement triggers brief auras.

    What sort of aura effects can be brought into the game, but not directly boost dps or defense of other players (hence "force" groups to take a paladin for this gimmick?)
    Why would you want a gimmick ability to get you accepted into a group. Wouldn't you rather have equivilant healing/tanking/dps abilities as every other class so if you're good you get to go? I can remember having to invite a shaman because of lust, or having to have a priest for MC. Didn't really matter if they were a shit player, or worse a shit person because they had the 'gimmick' that was needed so we had to deal with them. Why anyone would ask to be THAT GUY is beyond me.

  3. #3
    Something that this made me think of was the wind walker ability that gives everyone around them extra move speed. It's not something huge, but it's a benefit to bringing a monk. Could something like that work for a paladin?

  4. #4
    Epic! Gracin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anetulan View Post
    Something that this made me think of was the wind walker ability that gives everyone around them extra move speed. It's not something huge, but it's a benefit to bringing a monk. Could something like that work for a paladin?
    But that isn't a gimmick ability like he wants. The ability you're talking about can be given by druids, and I believe shamans as well. He want's something like

    [Hand of Pastafarian]-You protect all allies withing 25 yards from any damage for 5 seconds with a wet noodle.

    Ridiculous or not, if that were real there would be 15 paladins in every raid group. And yes I know he said no dps/defensive boosts, but that was an example of how special he wants to be.

    I understand people want diversity, or rather want to be a special snowflake. But I will take a spec I enjoy playing(Ret) that is balanced among the other dps specs out there. Let my skill as a player be the deciding factor in me getting a raid spot, not a skill in my spellbook.
    Last edited by Gracin; 2014-06-28 at 04:50 AM.

  5. #5
    Right now seals are spells with very little meaning- you just flip one on and ignore it. Holy just uses insight, As ret I ignore using seal of righteousness most of the time bc I'm never aoeing large enough packs (or long enough) to justify wasting a GCD- im better off racking up holypower for a divine storm. Prot I juggle between truth or insight depending on how much damage im taking, but having a good healer turns this decision into (i probably should just use truth for more dps so we finish the fight sooner)

    Your comment about gimmicks is what I'm trying to avoid tho: let one paladin in so we have devotion. With this kind of aura idea I propose (if each are made useful enough) it would be more of a choice of "which aura proc would be most useful atm". You dont take a shaman for just healing stream or earthbind totem, but its a useful tool to have.
    Seals atm are just passive damage and healing, I don't think it justifies as being a spell in our book- it could just as easily be just another passive perk melded into specialization traits and non would know the wiser. Scrap seals/judges for entirely new spells or revamp them to be meaningful choices a paladin would make.

    So I ask again, what sort of aura effects can be brought into the game that arent blatent "dps or defense" boosts; something that is useful but not mandatory to keep one particular on all the time (like ooo keep "ret aura" up, more attack speed ALL the time).
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2014-06-28 at 04:58 AM.

  6. #6
    Gracin doing his best to destroy any chance of discussion.

    Generally when a decent person has nothing to add they keep their opinions to themselves but you occasionally get easily offended egotists that do the internet equivalent of a child covering his ears and shouting "Stupid!".

  7. #7
    Epic! Gracin's Avatar
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    I wanna apologize for misreading what you wanted in the first place Cele, the way you worded the gimmick part read differently than what you meant the first time I read it.

    Seals are part of our toolkit, just because they aren't amazing or have raid wide usefulness doesn't mean they are garbage. They are a tool no different that druid forms, hunter aspects, and warrior stances. They give useful buffs when needed, and just because they aren't used constantly doesn't put them into a category of bad design, it places them in the category of utility.

    Your comment about not switching to Righteousness as ret isn't an issue with the seal being there, that is a numbers balance issue that is long overdue to be fixed, not removed. And as for them being just passive, I thing you should take a look at the level 100 talent Empowered Seals before passing judgement over abilities that have been at the core of the Paladin class for years.


    Quote Originally Posted by frymastermeat View Post
    Gracin doing his best to destroy any chance of discussion.

    Generally when a decent person has nothing to add they keep their opinions to themselves but you occasionally get easily offended egotists that do the internet equivalent of a child covering his ears and shouting "Stupid!".
    No, I am open for discussion, but people complain about us lacking in our basic areas(heal/tank/dps) which doesn't get us taken to raids over better dps(hunters/mages/warlocks). Adding gimmicks to this does nothing for us in the long term, where as balance us among other classes and specs goes a lot farther.
    Last edited by Gracin; 2014-06-28 at 05:08 AM.

  8. #8
    Just because gracian disagrees with you doesn't mean he's wrong.
    Gimmicky mechanics for only 1 class are silly.

    If we'd get something like pack and some other random mechanic, mb, but even then it would be awkward.

  9. #9
    Especially since blizzard has brought up that abomination that is empowered seals talent and has talked about bringing back the idea of seal twisting, I think you are wrong about that. Even in vanilla seals were set up to be that you go back and forth between them; it was supposed to be that doing so the benefit of one seal/judgement combo would boost the effectiveness of your next combo, but it didn't work well. Its current incarnation is just a dumbed down incarnation, but now if a ret (for example) wants to use insight he forfeits his dps - a spell system that is supposed to enable you to swap to a different passive effect on ease, but to do so punishes you by making your rotation less effective; its bad design. The talent succumbs to the same flaw, but batters you with clunky "inquisitions" you have to monitor- a distraction from following your rotation and encounter mechanics you should be on the lookout for.

  10. #10
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  11. #11
    Perhaps they could do something a little more fun for Auras. It requires an additional button, but only a single additional button. Here's how I figure Auras could be reworked into the game, and also boost the meaning of Seals. The ability would be called...

    Aura Mastery

    10 second duration, 1 minute cooldown (just some base number ideas)

    When activated, the Paladin produces an aura based on their active Seal. The effect of the Aura may also be enhanced by the current Paladin specialization. For instance:

    -Concentration Aura (Seal of Truth): Increases the rate/damage of your Censure ticks to all targets within X yards of the Paladin. Conversely, just increases Holy received from the Paladin using it.
    -Retribution Aura (Seal of Righteousness): Deals Holy damage to targets within X yards of the Paladin every second. Basically a short AE CD. I always liked the idea of a damaging Aura just for being near the Paladin.
    -Devotion Aura (Seal of Insight): Reduces all incoming damage to allies standing within X yards of the Paladin. Also refreshes the duration of Censure every 1 second while active but does not add additional stacks (idea being you don't lose TOO much damage potentially for using this defensive CD).
    -Sanctity Aura (Seal of Justice): Prevents the Paladin and nearby allies from being directly targeted for X seconds. Still vulnerable to AE and ground effects, does not work against targets higher level than you. I'm not as solid on what Seal of Justice's aura would do, but I feel like it should clearly be the PvP one, whether it is an area of denial, an area root, damage reflection ala Eye for an Eye, or something entirely new.

    My goal with the names was to use aura names already used. I realize Concentration Aura is a tad out of place, but Sanctity Aura makes sense being the only Retribution specific one (since that's been our aura before), Devotion Aura seems to have become the general "take less damage" aura, and Seal of Righteousness felt like it would mesh better with Retribution Aura just for its damage dealing property.

    Anyways, that's my take on Auras. The basic concept is that your Seal changes what happens when you press Aura Mastery, and it also potentially addresses the whole raid utility thing we don't have in WoD, but also takes a look via Seal of Justice at something we can bring to RBGs. 1 min CD seems pretty short, and it may be a problem with Devotion Aura, but I like the concept as a whole, because Seals and Auras are relatively iconic as the base part of our class. As far as Sanctity Aura being a passive buff in WoD, they could just as well make Blessing of Kings a passive that grants all 3 buffs (might, kings, versatility). No need for that to be a button.

  12. #12
    I like your idea ruiizu of tying the active aoe aspect of the seal/aura to a single trigger button. It might be better to avoid creating a new button though. I suggested having judgement trigger it because then it would be pulsing frequently (less burst, more consistant utility over time), thus not be another "devotion aura". It would enable opportunity to change it before the next judgement spell- what if that one particular aura isnt needed anymore? a skilled paladin will swap.

    -concentration aura has a lot of interesting passive self benefits and it's aoe would be better if its not tied to censure, which is only applied through single target abilities.
    - this is very similar to and idea I was tackling with:
    Seal of Valor- (insert righteousness here), when you cast judgement, you trigger consecration. disclaimer: I know how everyone loves their consecration and may be attached to the idea of it being an independent spell as it always has been (and with a glyph be able to have it land somewhere away from you), but this may be a solution to have paladin spellbooks more uniform (and through specialization, tweak what the damage numbers are so that holy and prot aren't dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage), and prune.
    Devotion exists atm as a powerful long CD (soon for only holy spec). A defense aura is a good idea so long as it doesnt fall under the unique/op threshold "must have a paladin in a raid because of this spell), something defensive but isnt a flat damage reduction.
    -Justice seems a bit op, but how bout instead having it act like sacrifice- % of damage players get within the aura is redirected to the paladin (up to a cap)

    my ideas of what aoe triggers could be were movement speed boost, aoe movement snare, aoe damage overtime (consecration), aoe bubble, aoe redirect % of damage to paladin and aoe heal over time
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2014-06-28 at 09:47 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebhil View Post
    I like your idea ruiizu of tying the active aoe aspect of the seal/aura to a single trigger button. It might be better to avoid creating a new button though. I suggested having judgement trigger it because then it would be pulsing frequently (less burst, more consistant utility over time), thus not be another "devotion aura". It would enable opportunity to change it before the next judgement spell- what if that one particular aura isnt needed anymore? a skilled paladin will swap.

    -concentration aura has a lot of interesting passive self benefits and it's aoe would be better if its not tied to censure, which is only applied through single target abilities.
    - this is very similar to and idea I was tackling with:
    Seal of Valor- (insert righteousness here), when you cast judgement, you trigger consecration. disclaimer: I know how everyone loves their consecration and may be attached to the idea of it being an independent spell as it always has been (and with a glyph be able to have it land somewhere away from you), but this may be a solution to have paladin spellbooks more uniform (and through specialization, tweak what the damage numbers are so that holy and prot aren't dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage), and prune.
    Devotion exists atm as a powerful long CD (soon for only holy spec). A defense aura is a good idea so long as it doesnt fall under the unique/op threshold "must have a paladin in a raid because of this spell), something defensive but isnt a flat damage reduction.
    -Justice seems a bit op, but how bout instead having it act like sacrifice- % of damage players get within the aura is redirected to the paladin (up to a cap)

    my ideas of what aoe triggers could be were movement speed boost, aoe movement snare, aoe damage overtime (consecration), aoe bubble, aoe redirect % of damage to paladin and aoe heal over time
    What if that idea regarding Redirected damage functioned like the damage from the voidwalkers in Nagrand? Like, you absorb damage from allies for a short period of time, and when the time expires (if you aren't dead), all of that HP damage is refunded to you via some kind of divine intervention effect or what not. That would mean sacrificing damage for your allies was actually beneficial rather than being a detriment to you and further contributing to how fast we seem to be able to die.

    Would be interesting to see our Judgment dropping non-CC breaking Consecrates wherever we threw them. It would be a bit like how DKs used to spam Desecrate all over, but less invasive visually and more focused on doing damage than on providing a ridiculous snare.

    Under your model, I could see Concentration Aura from Judgment doing something more like making you 'concentrate' on your target, increasing damage taken from Holy vs. the target, but it wouldn't feel much like an Aura then.

    I don't hate your ideas, but I'm not sure I really want anything else tied to Judgment. I think with the ability pruning we could probably stand to have 1 additional button (perhaps put it on your Guardian of Ancient Kings binding? idk) in the form of Aura Mastery. It may be that Devotion Aura just wouldn't work; that I don't know. It may be that Devotion Aura needs to remain its own specialty CD, but then I'd just consider naming it something that isn't Devotion Aura (perhaps call it Divine Intervention!). In fact yes, Divine Intervention could be our raid CD; Devotion Aura could just be a heal or something (maybe even Leech).

  14. #14
    My concern is making auras that can be used (and want to be used) by paladins of any spec and not making them Raid CDs. The problem with making a new raid CD is Blizzard stated they wanted to limit the # of those, and keep them a function healers for the most part do. The second restriction is making something that isn't a constant and direct impact on performance (healing, dps or damage reduction). Say for example earthbinding totem or ice trap- it doesnt directly reduce damage someone will take or slap damage, but it serves as a measure that rounds up targets

    I like your divine intervention idea. How about instead of directly taking damage, the damage incurred comes in the form of a anti healing bubble; the paladin doesn't take damage from it, but won't gain hp until the "bubble" is healed away.
    .....this just gave me a crazy idea for "forbearence"

  15. #15
    The anti-healing bubble is already something DKs have on their cheat death proc. I don't really know of any class ability that causes temporary damage to you, so I thought it would be cool if you were "rewarded" for sacrificing HP for allies with a heal equal to the damage sacrificed after the duration expires. It could easily be done with Hand of Sacrifice too, but I want Auras to be a part of our gameplay.

    Overall I was talking Auras that last for 10 seconds and have a 1 minute cooldown---something that you can use pretty often. The only other thing I could think would be to make Auras trigger from Holy Power expenditure---for instance Templar's Verdict, Word of Glory, Divine Storm, etc. With that, you could make it a rolling effect, wherein you want to constantly be spending Holy Power in order to maintain the effect (say for instance if you're in Seal of Righteousness and you want the AE, maybe each Holy Power spent causes the aura to last 3 seconds, for a total of 9; this would mean you want to always be spending Holy Power to keep that aura going). Auras could easily be made to be that "extra mechanic" people have been wanting to add in skill: temporary buffs that are maintained by expending your primary resource, Holy Power.

  16. #16
    cheat death is a self preservation ability, the difference here would be the paladin is mitigating damage on others by making him/herself more vunerable.

    Your idea on holy power expenditure triggering and potentially extending aura is a cool idea.

    1 min CD might work fine, but if it is a short duration it has to be potent and this might break that threshold we want to avoid: "this ability is really powerful, we MUST bring a paladin into the group"

    A look at our once horde hybrid rival, the shaman: healing stream totem lasts 15 seconds and has a 30sec CD; it is short but frequent. It is usefulness and frequency has its limitation by the strength of the heal and only heals one person at a time.

    If auras provide an aoe benefit, but cannot be strong raid CDs it should probably be something that is similarly short, not "bursty", but consistent and frequent.
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2014-06-29 at 01:41 AM.

  17. #17
    Auras don't necessarily need to provide a benefit to others (hence the two or three offensive auras I listed). Runspeed is another good benefit, although Monks already have that effect. Temporary suppression or immunity to movement impairs would potentially work for Justice, if I was going with the "auras are a side effect of spending Holy Power abilities."

  18. #18
    It sorta defies the concept of an aura, but having one particular seal proc only a passive effect that would be a default single target dps seal I suppose would work.

    but why would you make an aura that technically effects mutliple targets but only boosts your effectiveness on those you have slapped censure on?
    Last edited by Celebhil; 2014-06-29 at 02:01 AM.

  19. #19
    For flavor, basically. Also when you're keeping Censure on 2-3 targets, it'll be a boost to that.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gracin View Post
    I wanna apologize for misreading what you wanted in the first place Cele, the way you worded the gimmick part read differently than what you meant the first time I read it.

    Seals are part of our toolkit, just because they aren't amazing or have raid wide usefulness doesn't mean they are garbage. They are a tool no different that druid forms, hunter aspects, and warrior stances. They give useful buffs when needed, and just because they aren't used constantly doesn't put them into a category of bad design, it places them in the category of utility.

    Your comment about not switching to Righteousness as ret isn't an issue with the seal being there, that is a numbers balance issue that is long overdue to be fixed, not removed. And as for them being just passive, I thing you should take a look at the level 100 talent Empowered Seals before passing judgement over abilities that have been at the core of the Paladin class for years.




    No, I am open for discussion, but people complain about us lacking in our basic areas(heal/tank/dps) which doesn't get us taken to raids over better dps(hunters/mages/warlocks). Adding gimmicks to this does nothing for us in the long term, where as balance us among other classes and specs goes a lot farther.
    I'm all for being open minded about who gets what, but when was the last time a Retribution Paladin was taken over a Holy Paladin in a PvP setting?

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