Frost Mage for PvE in WoD

[Wobblytuna]

Hi there! First off I'll state that I am a Shadow Priest and have been for MoP. I used to play a Mage in BC and Wrath and just love frost. Maybe it's who I am.. I love ice!

Anyways my question is... Will Mages ever have what Warlocks have where each of the 3 specs are completely viable and competitive in PvE? I don't like it how they make one spec completely better than the rest and force you into playing that spec in PvE.

I want to reroll Mage so I can play Frost for PvE. Will Frost be viable?

Also I'm sorry if posts like this are everywhere... First time on mmochampion! Also if there are any good streams for WoD/Mages please share!

[Txiv]

All three Mage specs are viable, close in Dps and play very differently. Not sure where you heard all that.

[Huevos]

All three are very close in terms of output right now, can't really say where each will be in T17, but with the months we still have to wait now is a great time to play Frost if you want to try it.

There are a few streams of Frost mages out there, you can find them in the sticky.

[Wobblytuna]

Well I just looked at raidbots.com and Frost Mage is really really low whereas Arcane is 2nd and Fire is 6th ish.

[Relapses]

There's absolutely zero correlation to Mage performance now vs. Mage performance in WoD. The class is receiving a pretty major overhaul. On top of that, a numbers pass hasn't happened (and likely won't for another 5 or 6 months) and the only thing we can base any of our assumptions on are the alpha patch notes and gameplay which is fairly basic at this point.

[grimsanta]

Frost only becomes lesser at very high item levels, which we are seeing more of because of the long tier and valor upgrades.

However, at lower item levels, it's most likely on top, and has so much control that it's just a lot of fun.

[Unholyfap]

All 3 mage specs are currently viable. only reason people see frost as lower is because in high gear arcane an fire pull ahead by a small amount but even a small amount is super important to everyone so they all say frost sucks even when it doesn't.

[Relapses]

All 3 mage specs are currently viable. only reason people see frost as lower is because in high gear arcane an fire pull ahead by a small amount but even a small amount is super important to everyone so they all say frost sucks even when it doesn't.

Top Frost Mage:

http://www.proraiders.com/player/ind...ayer=Boegroeff

vs. top Fire Mage

http://www.proraiders.com/player/ind...player=Bluntss

vs. top Arcane Mage

http://www.proraiders.com/player/ind...&player=Blatty

That isn't a "small amount." That's well over a 100k DPS difference between the specs. I played Frost for a majority of the time I raided in 10s but I recently switched to Fire. The level of throughput at higher ilvls isn't even remotely comparable. Frost is competitive, but with ilvl inflation it's simply misleading to tell people the spec can hold a candle to Arcane or Fire atm.

[Artorius]

Don't say that, you'll awaken Akraen and his Frost squad!!!!

Infracted. - Shang

[Relapses]

Check my parses. I've parsed on pretty much every fight on Heroic this tier as Frost. I played it. A lot. But even I can't argue with cold, hard math.

[Shangalar]

We do not know anything about numerical balancing in WoD. It is likely that you will be able to play whatever you want. Try them out and stick to the one you like most. Currently they are relatively different in style - Fire builds towards Combustion, Frost is highly dynamic and reactive to procs and Arcane micromanages mana with the 3 main spells and dot.

Find something you like and don't worry about it too much. As for the current situation, all 3 of our specs are both viable and competitive, depending on gear, and our 3 specs are closer together in potential dps than the warlock specs.

[Polarthief]

The class is receiving a pretty major overhaul.

Frost is being changed slightly with BF/FOF getting a third stack, BF not being instant, and Multistrike being the best stat. Arcane is no longer tied to Rune and has Evo back (basically, reverted back to Cataclysm), and Fire got literally no changes to anything besides numbers. Yup, pretty major overhaul.

OT: No idea to tell if Frost will be good or not, but Frost is not too gear dependent, so for T17, most likely, it'll be fine. The way it's being built around Multistrike is pretty neat, and 5 procs will be fun.

- - - Updated - - -

Frost only becomes lesser at very high item levels, which we are seeing more of because of the long tier and valor upgrades.

I'd argue that Frost is lesser at high iLevels NOW due to Haste and Crit softcaps being so low (Haste past softcap = benefits DoTs only, and Crit past softcap benefits Orb, Blizzard, and Frostbolt only), so we're forced to take Mastery. With Multistrike coming, Frostbolt's cast time being "buffed" to be slower, and Shatter being changed to (Crit x 1.5) + 50% down from (Crit x 2) + 50%, the Haste and Crit softcaps will be a lot harder to reach. Oh, and with Reforging gone, too.

- - - Updated - - -

That isn't a "small amount." That's well over a 100k DPS difference between the specs. I played Frost for a majority of the time I raided in 10s but I recently switched to Fire. The level of throughput at higher ilvls isn't even remotely comparable. Frost is competitive, but with ilvl inflation it's simply misleading to tell people the spec can hold a candle to Arcane or Fire atm.

One could easily argue that because Fire and Arcane have higher simulated ceilings, more players will pick those routes. Frost is still very viable; it just doesn't have the highest ceiling.

Also, progression for T16 is so long gone that it doesn't matter what spec you play nowadays, assuming you only have one mastered. If you have 2+ mastered, AND have the gear to support the new spec, sure, go the one that every top Mages goes, or just say fuck all that and play what you enjoy because Siege is already (long) over.

[IsrafaelMage]

Well I just looked at raidbots.com and Frost Mage is really really low whereas Arcane is 2nd and Fire is 6th ish.

If you are looking at the top parses, you should understand that they dont apply to the normal raiding situations and progression fights. It's basically an assessment how hard you can pad if you are allowed to or if you can get away with it. If you follow that logic there's no sense in playing anything but affliction warlock. Also, lots of parses on nazrgim and some other bosses are done by padding on trash and then pulling boss. I'd also check % of the logs where mages were fed tricks for each spec, it can reveal a lot, in my opinion. In any case, i never felt gimped because i'm playing frost (11/14 atm) and all special duties i self-assigned myself to were not hindering my dps. It's not just dps - as frost, i had no problems with killing blobs on shamans, locking out grunts so they wont hit the npcs on galakras, stunning bonecrushers and doing other fairly useful stuff.

If you speak about average parses, frost is the go to spec for pugs and spares, which makes median DPS naturally lower. From my observations, many people simply dont know how to use Frozen Orb properly, AT as frost or even they simply dont bother with changing 75 talent depending on fight. Last week we had a pug with 57x gear in our alts raid who did mighty 170k dps on protectors hc.

PS Forgot to add, that pet is often excluded by WoL for some reason, which deprives us (frost mages) of 13-15% of total damage, depending on mastery.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Will Frost be viable?

Viable? Yes. It's viable right now, I played it through the entirety of progression this expansion with the exception of 3 fights (H Protectors of the Endless, H Sha of Fear, and H Norushen before the Ice Lance buff) and one week of lol100%ignitecombustion. Optimal? Probably not, but it'll be close. I don't feel that Frost should be optimal in PVE given the dominance in PVP; but it should be entirely playable to the extent of not holding your guild back, and potentially bring certain strengths relative to the other two.

[Relapses]

@Polarthief, the game as a whole will play a lot differently in 6.0 than it does now. We're lying to ourselves to pretend otherwise. The 90-100 perks on top of the basic mechanic changes will make for a much different experience playing Mage in WoD. Mage Bombs are going to be a lot different as well.

@Kuni, I've since switched to Fire but I raided Frost way longer than I think I should have... regardless, I agree with you on the part of viability. You're not going to be holding your raid back because you're Frost and if you play it well, you'll do just fine. However, once you get around 580+ ilvl, Frost scaling hits a brick wall while Fire and Arcane are exceedingly more effective. (Both for padding and for ST.) Frost does have a few unique strengths (incidental cleave is good in some situations and it's handy for SC mine duty), but generally speaking both Fire and Arcane do everything Frost can do but they do it a lot better. (Arcane has the highest potential for padding because your Bombs are much more effective.) Don't get me wrong, I like Frost a lot (I wouldn't have played it as long as I did if I didn't); I'd have stayed Frost even longer but my guild is transitioning to 25s and I wanted to make sure I was bringing most DPS I possibly could.

[Polarthief]

@Polarthief, the game as a whole will play a lot differently in 6.0 than it does now. We're lying to ourselves to pretend otherwise. The 90-100 perks on top of the basic mechanic changes will make for a much different experience playing Mage in WoD. Mage Bombs are going to be a lot different as well.

An "overhaul" is what happened to Warlocks in 5.0. That's not what we're getting. That's all I meant.

Yes, SOME things will be different. Not everything, and especially not for Fire.

[Amsden]

Will Mages ever have what Warlocks have where each of the 3 specs are completely viable and competitive in PvE?

You mean like how it is right now?

[Frost1129]

One could easily argue that because Fire and Arcane have higher simulated ceilings, more players will pick those routes. Frost is still very viable; it just doesn't have the highest ceiling.

The numbers you see posted up on the SimC front page are simulated averages, not ceilings (I'm assuming those are the numbers you are referring to here).

[Relapses]

SimC is also very bad at predicting padding and both Arcane and Fire are much better at padding damage than Frost. Arcane due to your Bombs (possibly the highest DPS for a single GCD in the game currently) accounting for so much of your damage and Fire because of Combustion. Frost incidental cleave does have some padding potential (again, mostly on Paragons, SC and P1 Garrosh add damage), but it's the weakest of the three specs. Another thing to consider is that while Frost is consistent damage, burst is lower than the other two specs and as gear gets better, kill times are faster and the ability to burst higher skews DPS, making it seem worse by comparison.

[Frost1129]

SimC is also very bad at predicting padding and both Arcane and Fire are much better at padding damage than Frost. Arcane due to your Bombs (possibly the highest DPS for a single GCD in the game currently) accounting for so much of your damage and Fire because of Combustion. Frost incidental cleave does have some padding potential (again, mostly on Paragons, SC and P1 Garrosh add damage), but it's the weakest of the three specs. Another thing to consider is that while Frost is consistent damage, burst is lower than the other two specs and as gear gets better, kill times are faster and the ability to burst higher skews DPS, making it seem worse by comparison.

Pretty sure I can show all of those things with different SimC options. Adjust fight length to see how burst skews DPS with short kill times. Adjust number of targets and see how fire/arcane start to dumpster on Frost to see how they blow it away with padding on multiple targets. The default options probably won't tell you these things, but that's why the options exist to be played with