Would making LFR 10 man help fix some of its issues?

[Florena]

I'm still a bit tired after waking up, so maybe this isn't the best idea. But I had a bit of a thought.

I think much of the toxicity in LFR stems from lack of accountability. Now, while there will always be a degree of this in queued cross realm content where you're not likely to see the group again, limiting it to ten people may help reduce this. The encounters could be tuned a bit more tightly, making it a bit less faceroll and helping to legitimize it a little more. If a dps is afking in a 10 man lfr I think they'd be more likely to be found out and kicked than in the current model for example. It would still be the easiest raid difficulty for sure, easily pugged by competent individuals, but reducing the size might make it easier to kick the toxic elements by not tolerating the afkers due to some tighter tuning.

My hope would be that with moderately tighter tuning due to the 10 man size (not enough to make it not puggable of course, still want it to be a good deal easier than flex) it would mean more of the toxic/lazy people get kicked, leading to them either no longer queuing as much or shaping up and contributing. Less players means a bit more responsibility placed on the ones that remain. If the level of toxicity reduces, maybe people wouldn't mind 'having' to run it for stuff and tier/trinkets could return, or help to improve its public image a bit.

The two downsides I can think of off the top of my head:

1. Longer queues for dps probably since you would still need 2 tanks presumably unless they dumbed down the tank mechanics so that 1 can do all of it without outgearing it.

2. Might feel less 'epic' for some people with only 10 players. Wouldn't bother me but I could see it bothering some people, especially those that don't have the means or time to do higher difficulties of raiding.


Anyone think this might work, or would it just blow up in blizzard's faces if they did this by not helping to reduce toxicity and just increasing queue times for non tanks?

[Lubricious]

As you pointed out a slacking DPS in a 10 man would be much more likely to be found out, largely because they would be responsible for carrying a larger percentage of the group's total damage output. That's also part of the problem. A 10-man format for LFR would also drastically increase the chance that someone new to the encounters would cause a wipe, and that people would start inspecting and kicking anyone with gear they didn't feel was enough to guarantee a fast easy clear.

As bad as LFR's are, I think changing to a 10-man format would cause a lot more problems than it would solve.

[Simple057]

Already a tank and healer shortage for lfr now you would need 2 times as many with groups being cut in half

[Tziva]

No way, it would make it worse.

Queues would be longer and it would be more difficult to carry shitty and/or AFK players.

[Mormolyce]

All I can see is down sides.

And there is no way for the game to force "accountability". That's a social thing.

[MetroStratics]

Anyone think this might work,

No, sorry. Only thing it would help is the lack of alarmism over one wipe. Far less people to cry.
It makes everything else more difficult, both tactically and logistically.

[wych]

I really don't see how that does anything but makes it worse

-more healers/tanks needed per DPSer
-AFK/shit/leeching players have a much larger effect on team

All I can see is down sides.

And there is no way for the game to force "accountability". That's a social thing.

Sort of, but the devs can help with that. Accountability existed when realm communities were a thing and reputation stuck with you. Blizzard removed accountability with cross realm stuff effectively making you completely anonymous with no consequence

[Skeppio]

Hell no. The lack of accountability in current LFR is a problem, but making it 10 man would only make the groups themselves worse and far less enjoyable. It's 25 man for a reason; because a few deaths in 25 is negligible, while three or more deaths in 10 often means a wipe. Having say, 5 afk'ers in 25 man, the fight's still beatable without them. In 10 man, that's half your raid group not contributing at all.

[Deleted]

10man is such a shitty unfun raid format in general, no need to make LFR even worse than it already is. I'm glad that 10man raiding is being removed soon.

[satimy]

They should nerf Lfr, its to hard with all of your dps in timeless gears.

[Deleted]

In my opinion the problem is not the accountability, but the anonymity. People behave like assholes whenever they are anonymous and have no punishment whatsoever for bad behavior. If you would reduce the size of LFR it wouldn’t solve any problems, but it would drastically increase them.

Want an example? I raided flex 2 with my alt this week, for the first time completely crossrealm and I got invited to shamans. No one was from the same realm. At the shamans a tank let’s call him “Johnny Awesome”, stood in the blobs, stood up to 5 seconds in the walls, which were just anywhere around the room, and stacked way above 5 stacks. The three healers tried to compensate that, which they somehow did by healing 170k hps each. At some point some trash engaged the healers and ripped them apart one after another – Wipe at 18%.

Guess what Johnny Awesome did? He flamed our warlock for having 2 pieces of 550 PvP gear on. “I WON’T DRAG PVP SCUM THROUGH MY RAID! (He wasn’t leader however) FUCK IT! I can get a better group within minutes anyway as a tank!” and he disbanded the raid group because he had assist. Though no one even said a word in before.

Decreasing LFR raid size to 10 man, would therefore IMO cause similar situations with even more toxic behavior. If someone doesn’t do enough dps, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are your so called afkers. They could have bad gear, they could not play their rotation optimal. 25 man lets you compensate that so these ppl learn the bosses, rotations and get gear, however 10 man doesn’t or at least doesn’t much.

[nekobaka]

25 man was supposed to help resolve the queue issues and yet we have LFR queues that are longer than Cata heroics. 25 man is a doule edge sword and with it comes a bigger blob of shity being flung around especially towards needed roles like tanks. DPS get more anonymity and less responsibility while tanks got increased responsibility. Didnt really do anything to deal with the issue at hand other than feed it. More of a bandaid fix.

[Sansnom]

I'm still a bit tired after waking up, so maybe this isn't the best idea. But I had a bit of a thought.

I think much of the toxicity in LFR stems from lack of accountability. Now, while there will always be a degree of this in queued cross realm content where you're not likely to see the group again, limiting it to ten people may help reduce this. The encounters could be tuned a bit more tightly, making it a bit less faceroll and helping to legitimize it a little more. If a dps is afking in a 10 man lfr I think they'd be more likely to be found out and kicked than in the current model for example. It would still be the easiest raid difficulty for sure, easily pugged by competent individuals, but reducing the size might make it easier to kick the toxic elements by not tolerating the afkers due to some tighter tuning.

The "toxicity" are usually the better players. Some people are very good in the game. They raid heroic. Like wise, there some people who are very bad in the game, they do "sub par" or below than expected DPS in the game. The problem is that for the some players, it is intolerable that they are doing below average DPS, even though the extra DPS only means the kill is a few seconds quicker.

I have not many that were kicked due to AFK, more often it is a selective few demanding that low DPS should be removed from the group, even though LFR were primary for these types of players.

It would nice to remove people who are AFK and are looking for a free carry. But sometime there is a reason that person is not at the keyboard. Real life happens.

Reducing the raid to 10 man will cause more problems than it solves in my opinion.

[Dormie]

10man is such a shitty unfun raid format in general, no need to make LFR even worse than it already is. I'm glad that 10man raiding is being removed soon.

Are you kidding? 25 man is the shitty version. It doesn't even feel tactictal, it's just a big zerg.

Yes 10 man LFR would be 10x better. The ONLY downside is longer queues, but big deal. If someone is underperforming they are found out and called out much easier.

[Qly]

It would nice to remove people who are AFK and are looking for a free carry. But sometime there is a reason that person is not at the keyboard. Real life happens.

I was going to agree with everthing you said, but carrying afkers? f*ck that, half a fight MAYBE, but i havent gone into a single lfr (granted, i dont run lfr much) where there wasnt a couple of players just being there for when the group needed to move and then doing 0 dps on every boss fight. If you dont think you have 1 hour of free time, then dont queue, and if something comes up, man up, leave group and stop being a freerider leech

[Sansnom]

I was going to agree with everthing you said, but carrying afkers? f*ck that, half a fight MAYBE, but i havent gone into a single lfr (granted, i dont run lfr much) where there wasnt a couple of players just being there for when the group needed to move and then doing 0 dps on every boss fight. If you dont think you have 1 hour of free time, then dont queue, and if something comes up, man up, leave group and stop being a freerider leech

You misunderstood me. But that is okay. I was not specific enough. When I said carrying an AFKer, I did not mean the whole run. I was referring to being AFK for a single boss encounter. Most are usually back by then.

[Florena]

The "toxicity" are usually the better players. Some people are very good in the game. They raid heroic. Like wise, there some people who are very bad in the game, they do "sub par" or below than expected DPS in the game. The problem is that for the some players, it is intolerable that they are doing below average DPS, even though the extra DPS only means the kill is a few seconds quicker.

I have not many that were kicked due to AFK, more often it is a selective few demanding that low DPS should be removed from the group, even though LFR were primary for these types of players.

It would nice to remove people who are AFK and are looking for a free carry. But sometime there is a reason that person is not at the keyboard. Real life happens.

Reducing the raid to 10 man will cause more problems than it solves in my opinion.

True, sometimes irl happens. But if you're going to be afk for more than a few minutes you should probably drop out anyway rather than inconvenience the other 9-24 players.

[Deleted]

No. A retpally queuing as a healer and dpsing would be much more of a detriment in 10 than in 25.

[Vaerys]

Culling the baddies is not something that should be aimed at LFR.
LFR is FOR THE BADDIES.

[ComputerNerd]

Culling the baddies is not something that should be aimed at LFR.
LFR is FOR THE BADDIES.

Not everyone in LFR has the option of traditional raiding.
The problem with LFR is mostly the horrible attitude of elitist jerks.
LFR fills an option where people with less convenient circumstances, or the inability to meet inflated requirements.
The community made it a necessity, as much as they like to complain about it "ruining" their experience.
They opted to ruin the experience of anyone "below" their standards.

If people aren't being kicked, then that is again a community problem.
Because they are just being ignored, it being "too much drama" or simply not worth it.
Kicking a dps might be more likely in 10m but what would happen if it were a tank or healer ?