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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodom View Post
    I also think this thread would be better if we compared the absolutely highest cheesed logs from dps classes on patchwerk style fights.
    Well, for MoP that would be Iron Juggernaut done with 20 Affliction Warlocks and all of them using 4 trinkets. You could then watch the boss die well within the first phase 1 and a couple of those locks (the ones that actually had all four trinkets and the meta gem up simultaniously) ending up well beyond the 1m dps mark. That's just silly.
    You could then just go on, pick up Chi-Ji's buff on the timeless isle and curbstomp a celestial with your warlock-raid.

  2. #102
    Pandaren Monk Bodom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyand1337 View Post
    Well, for MoP that would be Iron Juggernaut done with 20 Affliction Warlocks and all of them using 4 trinkets. You could then watch the boss die well within the first phase 1 and a couple of those locks (the ones that actually had all four trinkets and the meta gem up simultaniously) ending up well beyond the 1m dps mark. That's just silly.
    You could then just go on, pick up Chi-Ji's buff on the timeless isle and curbstomp a celestial with your warlock-raid.
    And that would be a very good example to use when you're trying to compare numbers between expansions and arguing how broken numbers and ilvl inflation have become. Without a number squish we'd end up doing close to a hundred million dps in WoD.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodom View Post
    And that would be a very good example to use when you're trying to compare numbers between expansions and arguing how broken numbers and ilvl inflation have become. Without a number squish we'd end up doing close to a hundred million dps in WoD.

    100 million? maybe 10-20 million, but DPS never went up 100x in a single expansion.

  4. #104
    Pandaren Monk Bodom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vedni View Post
    100 million? maybe 10-20 million, but DPS never went up 100x in a single expansion.
    My 540 lock can do 200k dps and the best 588 locks are pulling off 700k+ and it's the same gear except for the ilvl and the legendaries. That's 3x dps difference between characters geared up with gear from the same tier.

    If anyone care to Google the ilvl stat formula it would be fun to see what kind of stats ilvl 800-850 items would have with current stats in mind.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodom View Post
    My 540 lock can do 200k dps and the best 588 locks are pulling off 700k+ and it's the same gear except for the ilvl and the legendaries. That's 3x dps difference between characters geared up with gear from the same tier.

    If anyone care to Google the ilvl stat formula it would be fun to see what kind of stats ilvl 800-850 items would have with current stats in mind.
    Yeah, exponential growth is the main issue. Slightly more then doubling from Classic to TBC (~1k to 2.5k), fivefold from TBC to Wrath (2.5k to 13-14k), around fivefold again from Wrath to Cata (14k to 70k, would have been tenfold probably if there was a 4th tier) and then almost tenfold again from Cata to MoP (70k to 700k in extreme situations).

    Even a tenfold increase again would mean we'd be looking at 6-7 million dps in the final tier!

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    jk warlocks?
    No? Most classes, if not even all with the right amount of gear can do that on, let's say Iron Jugg 25H.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by xuros View Post
    Nax our dps pushed 800-1100 on patchwerk in Vanilla.
    Rogues with optimal gear and rotation + self buffs could reach 1500
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodom View Post
    I personally think that the 30% buff in ICC should be included because LK25hc wasn't killable without the buff and the dps people remember is obviously from what they saw on their damage meters and WOL which all included the 30% buff.
    I'm pretty sure Paragon managed to kill LK25HC with the buff disabled.

  9. #109
    Paragon did kill LK25HC without the buff, they were the only guild who did.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Paragon did kill LK25HC without the buff, they were the only guild who did.
    They also had the trinkets (and possibly other stuff) from RS iirc, which is more important than them being the only guild who killed it imo. I don't remember them ever killing it with only ICC gear
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    They also had the trinkets (and possibly other stuff) from RS iirc, which is more important than them being the only guild who killed it imo. I don't remember them ever killing it with only ICC gear
    How is them possibly having marginally improved (over ICC 25HC) items in 1-2 slots more important than the fact that they were the only guild to do it?
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    If all 3 rogues in your 25 man group are chain TotT on your affliction warlcok (who is also getting Unholy Frenzy from the DK) then he is "padding" in the sense that the raids focus for dPS output is being focused on one player.
    Unholy frenzy increasing cast speed? Right...

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by The Caretaker View Post
    I think this is grossly overcooked.

    Vanilla was, to my knowledge, nowhere near 1k DPS on average - 700 to 800 was about as good as the average well-geared player got. I do stand to be corrected on that, though.

    During Outland, nobody was doing 4 to 5k on average - the average, in top end gear, wasn't even 2k. Method's first Kil'jaeden kill, for example, see's the rogues not able to get above 2.5k, never mind the crazy numbers being quoted, and their uptime was very high. Against the Lich King on heroic, Paragon's top DK was managing around 14k (slightly less) so, again, the 20k number is grossly overstated, even considering the downtime on Arthas. As for Cataclysm, you'd probably have to pick a fight like Blackhorn with decent uptime and Method's top guy was doing 48k so at least that number is relatively accurate, but still too high for the average player.

    As for MoP, just look at what Method were doing for Garrosh: and this is overcooking it by around 100k, which is quite a lot.

    Now, obviously, it depends on when you meant and specific fights, but a cursory glance over end-tier fights tells you the story.

    The best players were doing the following (ish):

    TBC: 2.5k
    WotLK: 14k
    Cataclysm: 48k
    Mists: 400k

    These are the top performers, so it's safe to assume the average player was miles below the numbers quoted.
    Can't say anything to your numbers from the previous expansions, as I don't even remember what was high end dps for them but I can tell you that your 400k for MoP is low. As far as I've heard, Enh shammies aren't the best DPS spec and we have one in our raid group that consistantly pulls 400k - 600k.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Xires View Post
    This. I never saw any numbers close to 4-5k in TBC people were doing 4-5k in naxx 2.0 at lvl80. 2.5k was high end in sunwell. 14k was also very high in ICC and remember there was a 30% buff to your damage, health, and healing in ICC afterwards so anything higher is simply inflated stats and irrelevant.
    Very few rogues did break the 4k dps limit (with glaives for extra ap vs demons and a lot of whoring, can't remember if rotating bloodlust was still possible at this stage but I think it was) and it was all about the _top_ dps of each expansion. On average though, 4k was pretty unrealistic but definately doable later into expansion.

    Edit: I don't recall anyone breaking 5k though, I might agree with that.
    Last edited by Jiigeri; 2014-06-27 at 01:49 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigeri View Post
    Very few rogues did break the 4k dps limit (with glaives for extra ap vs demons and a lot of whoring, can't remember if rotating bloodlust was still possible at this stage but I think it was) and it was all about the _top_ dps of each expansion. On average though, 4k was pretty unrealistic but definately doable later into expansion.

    Edit: I don't recall anyone breaking 5k though, I might agree with that.
    4k was only doable on Shade of Akama or on Rage Winterchill by mind controlling the Shadow Necromonacer trash mobs (100% attack speed buff per stack), it's a fairytail number on any boss that isn't gimmic. Rotating bloodlust was normal just for progression, as was all the melee dps having leatherworking. SK gaming topped 3k at the end of the expansion with hunters, using the legendary bow + the usual damage inflation methods. This was the highest damage parse in TBC on a true single target fight.



    4k Dps numbers only showed up with the WOTLK patch when new talents came in and scaling was shot.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2014-06-27 at 02:25 PM.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  16. #116
    You guys are mixing up a lot of things.

    First I think this thread is about TOP single target DPS, Patchwerk style without cleave and without cheeseing, otherwise it has no purpose. According to Simcraft it is about 530K which is a bit wrong since with that kind of single target DPS, boss die a lot quicker than the sim settings so more like 600/650k (with perfect bis).

    Second, you can't compare the end of MoP with the end of other expansions because they completely changed the way they nerf the content. Now you get increased ilvl therefore increased DPS but it is only temporary. If they decided to go with the old -X% damage/health on bosses instead of the ilvl boost, the top gear would be ~564 (you have to substract the 4 upgrades in SoO and the 2 upgrades in ToT) so almost 2 tiers lower.

    On top of that you have to consider that everyone has 2 legendaries so if you want to make a fair comparison you'd have to compare against the DPS people pulled out with legendaries in previous xpac.

    It feels like the progression of DPS in MoP was through the roof, but if you take everything into consideration, it not THAT bad, probably more than before but nowhere the 10x cata numbers people claim it is.

  17. #117
    Pandaren Monk Bodom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Paragon did kill LK25HC without the buff, they were the only guild who did.
    Nah, they did it with 5% buff. They did however kill it later on without the buff when LK was on farm.

    Edit:

    A quick Google search shows that a bunch of guilds did turn the buff off and killed him without it later on.
    Last edited by Bodom; 2014-06-27 at 05:46 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    You guys are mixing up a lot of things.

    First I think this thread is about TOP single target DPS, Patchwerk style without cleave and without cheeseing, otherwise it has no purpose. According to Simcraft it is about 530K which is a bit wrong since with that kind of single target DPS, boss die a lot quicker than the sim settings so more like 600/650k (with perfect bis).

    Second, you can't compare the end of MoP with the end of other expansions because they completely changed the way they nerf the content. Now you get increased ilvl therefore increased DPS but it is only temporary. If they decided to go with the old -X% damage/health on bosses instead of the ilvl boost, the top gear would be ~564 (you have to substract the 4 upgrades in SoO and the 2 upgrades in ToT) so almost 2 tiers lower.

    On top of that you have to consider that everyone has 2 legendaries so if you want to make a fair comparison you'd have to compare against the DPS people pulled out with legendaries in previous xpac.

    It feels like the progression of DPS in MoP was through the roof, but if you take everything into consideration, it not THAT bad, probably more than before but nowhere the 10x cata numbers people claim it is.
    Except all these are not only intended, but are going to be a part of WoD too (those 2 legendaries are comparable to 1 weapon legendary anyway). Discluding them is silly.

    @Bigbazz 1. It says magnitudes about whether it was actually possible without the trinkets (and whether it was realistic)
    2. Most guilds never even turned the buff off to try. I imagine that goes for a vast majority of the guilds to kill HC LK at 15% too. You had no reason to "continue" the 300+ wipes with 300+ more for something that few cared about.

    It's a feat in itself that paragon managed to get the people to agree to go back and do it, even as the most qualified (only 5% kill iirc?)
    Last edited by Raiju; 2014-06-27 at 05:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  19. #119
    Except all these are not only intended, but are going to be a part of WoD too (those 2 legendaries are comparable to 1 weapon legendary anyway). Discluding them is silly.
    Your point being ?

    you have to compare apples to apples, we have legendaries so you have to compare to people who had legendaries.

    What's the ilvl of the quest rewards in the first zones of WoD ? (serious question)

  20. #120
    Warchief sizzlinsauce's Avatar
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    lets just talk about how crazy they went with siege of orgrimmar. dps was scaling perfectly fine during MSV/hof/toes to ToT, 100-150k to tot 150-250k, but as soon as siege came out, all bets were off, people ending fights with 800k-1m dps for the very top end, and the mid top 100 to 1000 raiders doing aorund 400-600k

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