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  1. #121
    You guys are mixing up a lot of things.

    First I think this thread is about TOP single target DPS, Patchwerk style without cleave and without cheeseing, otherwise it has no purpose. According to Simcraft it is about 530K which is a bit wrong since with that kind of single target DPS, boss die a lot quicker than the sim settings so more like 600/650k (with perfect bis).

    Second, you can't compare the end of MoP with the end of other expansions because they completely changed the way they nerf the content. Now you get increased ilvl therefore increased DPS but it is only temporary. If they decided to go with the old -X% damage/health on bosses instead of the ilvl boost, the top gear would be ~564 (you have to substract the 4 upgrades in SoO and the 2 upgrades in ToT) so almost 2 tiers lower.

    On top of that you have to consider that everyone has 2 legendaries so if you want to make a fair comparison you'd have to compare against the DPS people pulled out with legendaries in previous xpac.

    It feels like the progression of DPS in MoP was through the roof, but if you take everything into consideration, it not THAT bad, probably more than before but nowhere the 10x cata numbers people claim it is.

  2. #122
    Mechagnome Bodom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Paragon did kill LK25HC without the buff, they were the only guild who did.
    Nah, they did it with 5% buff. They did however kill it later on without the buff when LK was on farm.

    Edit:

    A quick Google search shows that a bunch of guilds did turn the buff off and killed him without it later on.
    Last edited by Bodom; 2014-06-27 at 05:46 PM.

  3. #123
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    You guys are mixing up a lot of things.

    First I think this thread is about TOP single target DPS, Patchwerk style without cleave and without cheeseing, otherwise it has no purpose. According to Simcraft it is about 530K which is a bit wrong since with that kind of single target DPS, boss die a lot quicker than the sim settings so more like 600/650k (with perfect bis).

    Second, you can't compare the end of MoP with the end of other expansions because they completely changed the way they nerf the content. Now you get increased ilvl therefore increased DPS but it is only temporary. If they decided to go with the old -X% damage/health on bosses instead of the ilvl boost, the top gear would be ~564 (you have to substract the 4 upgrades in SoO and the 2 upgrades in ToT) so almost 2 tiers lower.

    On top of that you have to consider that everyone has 2 legendaries so if you want to make a fair comparison you'd have to compare against the DPS people pulled out with legendaries in previous xpac.

    It feels like the progression of DPS in MoP was through the roof, but if you take everything into consideration, it not THAT bad, probably more than before but nowhere the 10x cata numbers people claim it is.
    Except all these are not only intended, but are going to be a part of WoD too (those 2 legendaries are comparable to 1 weapon legendary anyway). Discluding them is silly.

    @Bigbazz 1. It says magnitudes about whether it was actually possible without the trinkets (and whether it was realistic)
    2. Most guilds never even turned the buff off to try. I imagine that goes for a vast majority of the guilds to kill HC LK at 15% too. You had no reason to "continue" the 300+ wipes with 300+ more for something that few cared about.

    It's a feat in itself that paragon managed to get the people to agree to go back and do it, even as the most qualified (only 5% kill iirc?)
    Last edited by Raiju; 2014-06-27 at 05:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  4. #124
    Except all these are not only intended, but are going to be a part of WoD too (those 2 legendaries are comparable to 1 weapon legendary anyway). Discluding them is silly.
    Your point being ?

    you have to compare apples to apples, we have legendaries so you have to compare to people who had legendaries.

    What's the ilvl of the quest rewards in the first zones of WoD ? (serious question)

  5. #125
    Warchief sizzlinsauce's Avatar
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    lets just talk about how crazy they went with siege of orgrimmar. dps was scaling perfectly fine during MSV/hof/toes to ToT, 100-150k to tot 150-250k, but as soon as siege came out, all bets were off, people ending fights with 800k-1m dps for the very top end, and the mid top 100 to 1000 raiders doing aorund 400-600k

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Recom View Post
    First I think this thread is about TOP single target DPS, Patchwerk style without cleave and without cheeseing, otherwise it has no purpose.
    This. One hundred times this. One of the big reasons I think everyone's memory of ICC damage being ludicrous was the 30% ICC buff which actually might as well have been the unofficial 35% ICC buff due to crit scaling and fun like that. If you wanted an accurate depiction of end game dos for Wrath, you would 5 man Patchwerk 25. I know it sounds ludicrous, but a full raid would kill it far to quick to make any sense and Patchwerk is the perfect target dummy fight. Super competitive dps wouldn't really be higher than 15k in Heroic gear if people did that.

  7. #127
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrgannus View Post
    This. One hundred times this. One of the big reasons I think everyone's memory of ICC damage being ludicrous was the 30% ICC buff which actually might as well have been the unofficial 35% ICC buff due to crit scaling and fun like that. If you wanted an accurate depiction of end game dos for Wrath, you would 5 man Patchwerk 25. I know it sounds ludicrous, but a full raid would kill it far to quick to make any sense and Patchwerk is the perfect target dummy fight. Super competitive dps wouldn't really be higher than 15k in Heroic gear if people did that.
    The problem is that Bloodlust uptime has always played a massive role in the overall dps done, it was more important than playing skill and you can't remove that factor and use your findings as valid, because it would not show a realistic view of things. Bloodlust uptime was certainly more important than player skill pre-cata when most specs were simpler "easy to learn, difficult to master" type specs, as apposed to the more complex priority/proc based specs of today. Inflation via buffs (tricks of the trade/hysteria for example) have played a massive role too.

    Using my spreadsheet example of a full BIS Fury Warrior (WOTLK with Shadowmourne + RS25Hc items) on a 5min fight, if you take away the 30% ICC buff, no tricks/hysteria stacking or exploiting fight mechanics to inflate damage. Then you're left with 15k dps.



    The thing is that tricks/hysteria stacking was a really important part of making dps requirements in a progression guild, so it's perfectly valid, the game was balanced around the assumption you would take advantage of your spells/buffs.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2014-06-28 at 02:09 AM.
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