Should false rape accusers face jail time?

[Deleted]

(women's issues means men's issues get ignored somehow)

The somehow is you - that's what you want.

[Deleted]

100% wrong. Ad hominem is only when an attack IS the argument. If you preface an argument with an attack but still make a reasonable argument, you're guilty of being tactless and possibly offensive, but not of logical fallacy. This doesn't change just because you have the wrong idea of what ad hominem means.

Oh my you cant make two different arguments ?

This is why fedora-wearing neckbeards shouldn't talk about real world issues involving women; they're hilariously uninformed.

Men defame and demonize women all the time, in every part of the world, and are mostly unpunished for it. And even though I personally feel a false rape accusation -- which, again, is nowhere as common or as bad than the much bigger problem of actual rape -- should be punished, if letting an accusation slide means stopping the much, much bigger problem, that's not an unreasonable argument.

Note the space in between said sentences, that constitutes:

A paragraph, is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea.

When you separate them into two sections, you make SEPARATE arguments.
And the first sentence, is Pure ad hominem, insults and baseless assertions about their knowledge.
If you want a strict application of formal rules, well i see your paragraph there.

Now for a second argument as indicated by my paragraph here, you are a lets say, pink fedora and feather boa wearer and shouldn't talk about any issue as you are hilariously misinformed.

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Making false reports is a crime in the United States and can include jail time >.< That should be common knowledge, looks like OP is British so I'm not sure what the repercussions are for false testimony in the UK.

Also not sure why this topic is about rape in particular, people make false reports regarding a variety of crimes on a regular basis.

its primarily an issue because many feminist organisations were up in a fit over the 3 and change year long sentence handed to a woman who lied about being raped, as they thought that if they cant make the accusation with no proof whatsoever (and get the supposed rapist locked up for 37 days) real rape victims would feel disinclined to come forward, ignoring the fact that if women wants to have any shred of faith put into their stories, punishment must be meted out to those who lie.

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(e.g., wah wah women's issues means men's issues get ignored somehow)

you do know A, feminist are out for improving their lot in life? not mens.
B, several feminist issues are issues where their proposed solution would be downright harmful to men?
C, do you know about the gender gap in education?, know that in several places women are given extra quotas for say Med school?, want to know something funny? my Med school used to have a rule that 40% of the intake must be female, my entrance class had 38% men, when people pointed out they were breaking their rule, they pretended the rule was fair and non discriminatory, it wasn't, and then they got annoyed, and removed the rule.
So D, their point is valid.
and as an addendum:
E, you do know that many feminists want to make it so consent is no longer a defence in a trial? (hint it would either be a pointless change, or deeply discriminatory)

[Tyrgannus]

I wish I was joking and I wish this was looking for attention, but this unfortunately just happened to me.

[Also I don't want to be infracted because there is some sexual language but unfortunately I believe it to be important to explain the scenario. Still, I will live with the consequences of my actions if you choose to infract me].

Someone who I, up until a month ago, have been 900 miles away from for the past year just accused me of rape a year ago. She claims it happened in the small window of time that we were broken up but I was still in the same part of the country as her (we dated almost 3.5 years prior to this). During that window she is speaking of, we had sex no more than 5 times, and I think she blatantly initiated 4 of the 5 of them. The last time we had sex was the last day I saw her, and admittedly I initiated it. I told her it would be a long time since I saw her and that I was really going to miss her. I asked, freaking verbally, if she wanted to have farewell sex. While I don't remember her verbally saying yes, I do remember her taking off her clothes and choosing top, a position where she is more in control.

I come back to find that she has accused me of physical abuse and rape and is threatening to press charges. If you think I'm holding something back and there is more to the story, there probably is, but I certainly don't know it. I'm as confused as you are, Reader. She is literally a danger to me. Threats in society should be treated accordingly. I shouldn't have to live in fear that my door will be broken down over something I totally. Never. Did.

[Deleted]

yes, people who accuse others of crime falsely should face jail, falsely accusing someone of rape should be no exception

[Forgottenone]

If it is a blatant lie from the very start (She said she was raped but she never was by the person), she deserves jail time equal to what the man WOULD have gotten. As others and the judge said it makes it harder for real victims of rape to have a successful case because of these vicious.......skunks >_> By lying about things like this they threaten the mans reputation, his career, everything because of a lie for what gain? Money or revenge?

No, they deserve time equal to what the man would have gotten and they don't need help. We are better off trying to help those with true mental problems, these...skunks...are just vicious, cruel and greedy. You can't help that.

[Fojos]

That doesn't make men unable to be raped in the law.

I should have been more clear, they can't be raped by women.

[Deleted]

Depending on the country of reference, false rape claims do get punished. In Romania false claims are punished by law.
What i propose is this :false rape claims not to be considered a different crime, but an aggravated variant of the simple false claim.

they can't be raped by women.

Any particular reason to consider that?

[Daez]

I'm not sure if prison is the right sentence. Prison means more than one year in an actual prison setting. You would have to call false accusations a felony to get that far. There should most definitely be a punishment, but I think it should be a fine that covers the court cost of the defense, the cost of the prosecution and the cost of the investigation... Somewhere around a $10,000 fine sounds fair for a first offense.

[Fojos]

Depending on the country of reference, false rape claims do get punished. In Romania false claims are punished by law.
What i propose is this :false rape claims not to be considered a different crime, but an aggravated variant of the simple false claim.


Any particular reason to consider that?

Well, in UK a penis has to penetrate you to be seen as rape.

"1-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life."

"A woman could not commit rape as a principal offender, by the nature of the offence, but she could commit rape as an accomplice."

Even if a woman penetrated you with a dildo against your will in the UK, it wouldn't be seen as rape.

[Deleted]

Well, in UK a penis has to penetrate you to be seen as rape.

"1-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life."

"A woman could not commit rape as a principal offender, by the nature of the offence, but she could commit rape as an accomplice."

Even if a woman penetrated you with a dildo against your will in the UK, it wouldn't be seen as rape.

In addition the FBI uses this definition of rape;

Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.

This would open the realm into MoM rape, but not FoM rape as the FBI uses the CDC to aggregate the statistic(s) on rape, and the expert adviser for the CDC has this to say;

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Which pretty much says, a man having unwanted intercourse with a woman, irrespective of circumstances, is not rape.

According to the great CDC expert adviser Mary Koss. (She's also responsible for the 1 in 5 rape study, which has been debunked so many times by feminists and others it's just sad.)

Edit; This is just a pet peeve of mine, hence the post, when the great expert advisers for the CDC doesn't view female on male rape as a "Real" rape worth documenting or validating, it irks me.

[Deleted]

Honestly, it's a topic that is worrying me a lot also. I once witnessed this first hand back in highschool. A friend of mine got accused by his own sister of all people when we were 17 (she was 16). From the very beginning there was no doubt in the vast mayority of people's minds that he was guilty and he was treated accordingly. His mother threw him out and he'd basically been on the street if not for his grand parents.

She got the full and unmitigated support from everyone at school, female teachers didn't want to have him in their classes anymore and he was beat up by other guys for being a rapist swine. I honestly don't know what I would've done in his situation but then those people who didn't immediatly joined in on the whole thing and kept telling everyone how guilty he obviously he was were frowned upon to say the least for "supporting a rapist".

I'm fairly sure it doesn't sound as serious as it was here but the whole thing came close to a witchhunt from the medieval with him basically being far game and a social pariah. Worst thing was that when his mother got a psychologist for his sister and they started treating/analizing her it came out that she was a total nutjob. She basically wasn't able to differentiate between what happened to her and what happened to other people and even her own imagination.
In the end she basically walked in/saw him and his girlfriend having sex at some point, somehow spun the whole thing to them having had sex, could not explain to herself why she would do that and thus came to the conclusion that he had raped her.

So the whole thing fell apart once the professionals got involved, sadly the story doesn't end there. Even though it was certain she was messed up to no end and her story simply couldn't be true since she also kept constantly changing it for the vast mayority of people he was guilty anyway. The bullying didn't stop, him being a social pariah didn't stop, some female teachers refused to have him in their classes and the only solution was that he and his grandparents moved far enough away to allow him to start over.

[Skronk]

In principal yes, they definitely should, if its demonstrated with absolute certainty that the accuser did knowingly falsely accuse then they should be up for the exact same punishment as the accused was.

In reality, i'd have to say no though, as this would no doubt cause problems with genuine victims of rape being too scared to come forward about it for fear of being falsely punished themselves. I'd hate to hear about some poor lass/lad getting chucked in jail after being raped because some jackhole lawyer performed some legal trickery to get his/her client off with it or whatever, only for the truth to come out years later.

[Hotasianchick]

So if say a woman accuses a man they go to court her case is not made and he walks so she serves time. This would have even more of a chilling effect for women to come out against there attackers. Are you kidding me.

There are already laws for filing false reports with police and if caught early on a blatant false report that is already being handled. If it was directed directly at rape victims to catch the needle in the haystack false accuser it would have one hell of a affect on women coming forward for more than just rape it would create a rift where domestic abuse victims would also fear the police.

you cant be serious about this.

[Deleted]

So if say a woman accuses a man they go to court her case is not made and he walks so she serves time. This would have even more of a chilling effect for women to come out against there attackers. Are you kidding me.

There are already laws for filing false reports with police and if caught early on a blatant false report that is already being handled. If it was directed directly at rape victims to catch the needle in the haystack false accuser it would have one hell of a affect on women coming forward for more than just rape it would create a rift where domestic abuse victims would also fear the police.

you cant be serious about this.

Yeah instead they should be left to utilize this damocles sword hanging over everyone they dislike whenever they want and to what end they want. You're underestimating the seriousness such accusation pose for people who have them leveled against them. The whole "guilty untill proven innocent" principle flies right out of the window, these people become social pariahs and are basically stained for life at least in western countries.

I saw the whole thing in effect and it's scary to no end, it reminded me more of a medieval witchhunt or the inquisition than anything else and even after the person was proven innocent everyone still treated him as guilty anyway.

I do realize and agree that rape is a horrid crime that needs and should be punished no matter who the perpretator is (hind for you, the guilty aren't always male and the victims always female despite your post working on that principle). But that doesn't mean that people who use these false claims to get revenge on their ex, because they want to hurt someone or the likes (and this isn't just the needle in the haystack) can't be allowed to get away with it either.

It's one thing to not be able to PROVE a crime and thus having the accused being declared not guilty, it's a different thing when the accuser has been found to make up these things and we're mostly running on the second case not the first one here.

Also I like how you imply that domestic abuse victims are usually female, they're not. Half of them are male and the person most likely to abuse children is the mother.

[FrozenFlames]

There is a difference between lying about rape and being raped but without it being proved; yet these 2 will be punished both if a certain law would exist.
Also, people who are raped are already ashamed of themselves, often. So why would you want them to worry about even more?

[Yarathir]

There is a difference between lying about rape and being raped but without it being proved; yet these 2 will be punished both if a certain law would exist.
Also, people who are raped are already ashamed of themselves, often. So why would you want them to worry about even more?

Bullshit. You can punish those that lie and still leave people in cases where it simply can't be proven safe from it.



If you're not lying about it, there should be no reason for you to be any more scared to report it if something like this happened.

[Revi]

91% of MMO-Champion agrees on a sensible choice on a topic like this. What the shit is going on?

[Yarathir]

..................


Edit: Hah, beat me to it, Slaskra.

Haha, touché. Typical Axelhander-level hypocrisy, though. Glad you got acquainted with our great friend Axelhander who never seems to budge in favour of the male when it's a male v.s. female.

[Deleted]

Also not sure why this topic is about rape in particular, people make false reports regarding a variety of crimes on a regular basis.

I know this is pretty old but let me explain from my point of view. I saw how the whole thing works out once already from up close, I saw how terrifying it is to be accused of such a thing and how even being proven innocent doesn't affect the label you've been branded with. In all honestly, I'd rather be accused of murder or being a drug dealer or any other kind of scum than being a rapist.

Why? Because the backlash would be less severe, because you could live down these things, because eventually people would move on. In this case, it wont. It doesn't even have to be true, you're branded just the same. So the prospect of any ex or girl who has some beef with me being able to just walk to the police or utter these accusations and them wrecking my entire life for good even if it's proven that she was lying and her having the knowledge that she can just do so and walk away afterwards is pretty goddamn scary.

[Frogguh]

I don't know how things are handled in other countries, or even other states, but where I live if you are arrested - not convicted, but simply arrested - your face is plastered on the local sheriff's website and it is also described in the newspaper. So if you are falsely accused of rape, everyone in the entire area you live in is going to see that you were arrested and charged with rape. That is huge. You are pretty much screwed at that point.

If the laws were such that nothing was made public until after a conviction, then I would not support any punishment except what a false report would normally warrant. But given that the accusation itself is enough to essentially ruin an innocent man's life, then there needs to be a correspondingly harsh penalty for lying about it. That's nothing to play around with.