[Holy] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Xs]

but if you want an official response - PLEASE post on the blizzard beta forums.

Would be wonderful if they recognized their EU testers, and gave them some basic posting rights without having to make multiple Bnet acc's. If that were the case I'd be posting multiple bug reports and adding to threads where ever I could.

[Floopa]

most of the logs people linked showed pallies to be on par with shaman + monks, with discs behind and druids/holy priests on top.

everyone knows holy priests/resto druids are op (and tuning hasnt begun) so why exactly are paladins in such a bad state?

[Bloodorem]

most of the logs people linked showed pallies to be on par with shaman + monks, with discs behind and druids/holy priests on top.

everyone knows holy priests/resto druids are op (and tuning hasnt begun) so why exactly are paladins in such a bad state?

4 posts ago i wrote a few reasons (not takeling the mastery Problem.)

I think no one actually said we cant compete with other healers, everyone says it's just bad game play.

[Floopa]

everyone healer sucks to play atm and will continue to because they'll be 0 thought, but that's not really blizzard's fault. there's always gonna be "a best way" to heal and that's how it is

[Bloodorem]

are you serious right now?

First of all you asked Whats so bad about them?
You got your answer and then you respond with, yea but everyone plays bad right now but you know its not the fault of the company who made them this way.
"a best way" is not the same thing as boring.

Even IF that would be the case (which i reject), that would be even worse and you should actually support us for a change to the better.

[Floopa]

i do but i think a change for the better should involve all classes and not be under the presumption that "paladins get ignored", because that's wrong and misleading

[Pasture]

most of the logs people linked showed pallies to be on par with shaman + monks, with discs behind and druids/holy priests on top.

everyone knows holy priests/resto druids are op (and tuning hasnt begun) so why exactly are paladins in such a bad state?

I think you're missing the point of most of the critiques in this thread. People are commenting it's boring. It's not fun. Our toolkit isn't really adequate in it's current incarnation. There's nothing really pushing us toward crit as a favoured stat. We need mechanic changes. Tuning will do nothing to alleviate these things.

[Freia]

most of the logs people linked showed pallies to be on par with shaman + monks, with discs behind and druids/holy priests on top.

everyone knows holy priests/resto druids are op (and tuning hasnt begun) so why exactly are paladins in such a bad state?

Because absolutely no one in this thread has mentioned having issues our current mechanics and playstyle? Seriously Floopa you add nothing to the discussion and should just leave.

i do but i think a change for the better should involve all classes and not be under the presumption that "paladins get ignored", because that's wrong and misleading

Just because other healers have issues does not mean paladins do not have issues as well. This is a holy paladin thread in a paladin forum. We are discussing the issues we have with the spec and its mechanics. If you want to have a discussion on the overall state of healing go to the healing thread in WoD discussion forums, but we are going to continue to discuss the our class/spec here.

[Malthanis]

most of the logs people linked showed pallies to be on par with shaman + monks, with discs behind and druids/holy priests on top.

everyone knows holy priests/resto druids are op (and tuning hasnt begun) so why exactly are paladins in such a bad state?

everyone healer sucks to play atm and will continue to because they'll be 0 thought, but that's not really blizzard's fault. there's always gonna be "a best way" to heal and that's how it is

i do but i think a change for the better should involve all classes and not be under the presumption that "paladins get ignored", because that's wrong and misleading

I'm kind of struggling with what your point is here. The general consensus of complaints that I've seen tossed around is that healing as a Holy Paladin is simply cumbersome at the moment. Not much about numbers, just that the playstyle sucks.

1. Nobody (or very few) have complained about numbers, so why did you bring up the whole 'on par' bit?
2. What exactly did you mean by the "0 thought, best way" post?
3. The "paladins getting ignored" bit is actually something that's affecting the class as a whole.

[Juicyjonny]

If you want to contribute, write down what mechanics you think is boring and why to discus solutions here rather then just talk of how bad everything is....

You think holy paladins are "bored" from what we've tested so far on beta? You think people are on beta playing holy paladin going "I am beating everyone on beta with just a couple of buttons, not going oom or anything! SO BORING!"

BORING???

- - - Updated - - -

most of the logs people linked showed pallies to be on par with shaman + monks, with discs behind and druids/holy priests on top.

everyone knows holy priests/resto druids are op (and tuning hasnt begun) so why exactly are paladins in such a bad state?

Were they exceptional holy paladins in a raid with subpar resto shamans and monks?

That is like in this current tier a disc priest in the 70th percentile having the same healing numbers as a paladin in the 95th+ percentile. Very difficult to determine if we are "on par" with shamans and monks at the moment. Need a bit more data. MORE TESTINNGGGGGG AHHHHHHH

[Floopa]

I'm kind of struggling with what your point is here. The general consensus of complaints that I've seen tossed around is that healing as a Holy Paladin is simply cumbersome at the moment. Not much about numbers, just that the playstyle sucks.

1. Nobody (or very few) have complained about numbers, so why did you bring up the whole 'on par' bit?
2. What exactly did you mean by the "0 thought, best way" post?
3. The "paladins getting ignored" bit is actually something that's affecting the class as a whole.

so healing in wow is designed in such a way that there is always gonna be a best way to do it. i'll use MWs as an example. the best way to with MWs is ReM on CD, expel on CD, SCK, Uplift. if you do anything else you're gonna end up performing a lot worse because it's not as efficient

there are ways they could make healing fun but ultimately the moment when "the best way" of healing (a fight, or in general) is figured out it becomes boring because you can't deviate because there's 0 point. ergo, 0 thought in healing.

you can't play SH because SH sucks, and you play SS because EF is awesome. so you're forced into EF. sure you can choose the other 2 but it doesn't mean it's the most efficient way of healing, and therefore there's 0 point to it. and you can't nerf EF or buff the other 2 because 1 talent is always gonna be the best. hence healing in wow just sucks because it's boring and there's 0 thought

its not hard to understand, if you have X boss which favours Y healing style, why use Z when Y wins? that's what leads healing to be boring. this is because people who normally care about the class and have a vested interest in it like to be efficient/play at a level where efficiency is necessary, so that can't be helped. healing is more fun for the crowd it doesn't effect: the MW who only does LFR and flex and wants to play with path of mists? he's gonna have a fun time because he can just run around during fights and not actually do anything while contributing but is this playstyle viable in normal/heroic raids? unlikely

the reason paladins, or well all healers, are boring is because you're forced into playing the most efficient way and that itself is the reason why. the class is kinda fun when you forget about numbers/efficiency/wanting to top meters because you can mess around and not actually care*

*on alpha i was dungeon testing with path of mists and just running around a tank while lololololing to myself but obviously in a heroic raid this isnt gonna be sufficient rofl

you are asking people in method, exorsus and other amazing top end pve guilds if they find their class fun (in this case paladins) and they'll never have fun on the class because it's going to be boring when you're forced into playing something just because it's the best way of doing so

That is like in this current tier a disc priest in the 70th percentile having the same healing numbers as a paladin in the 95th+ percentile. Very difficult to determine if we are "on par" with shamans and monks at the moment. Need a bit more data. MORE TESTINNGGGGGG AHHHHHHH

when looking at guild logs i would hope the healers were of the same calibre given how easy it is to heal lol

[mcbubble]

most of the logs people linked showed pallies to be on par with shaman + monks, with discs behind and druids/holy priests on top.

everyone knows holy priests/resto druids are op (and tuning hasnt begun) so why exactly are paladins in such a bad state?

I for one have complained about our #s.
From my testing - we struggle to catch up unless we have cooldowns pop'd.

From the logs that I've seen on other healers, we are definitely not on par. Take these for example:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...1&type=healing
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...4&type=healing
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...4&type=healing
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...ealing&fight=5
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...R#type=healing

The logs show that our overall #s are skewed because our #s become so inflated when we pop our CDs. After that - they're utter crap.

During my first log, I showed that I was on top by far. But as soon as the druids came in and were stable, it wasn't even a challenge for them to be on top.
I'm a competitive healer and #s matter to me. I usually do decent rank-wise. So for my first log, you'll see amazing heals when I pop'd CDs:
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...Z#type=healing

Now look at the shaman. He got hosed because he died early on. His sustained healing is way higher than mine.
From the other attempts, I'm telling you - not only is our gameplay wonky at best, but our #s need to be better outside of CDs.
Again - like I've said many times over ... this may change in the tuning phase. Our gameplay probably won't.

[Freia]

No Floopa, the reason why most of us find the playstyle boring and cumbersome is because of the class mechanics make it so. This is all subjective. You cannot tell us with absolute certainty why we find the spec "not fun". In my opinion, there is no alternate/less efficient playstyle available in current beta build that would make the holy paladins fun and interesting. Many of the issues we have mentioned have nothing to do with the talents so being able to play a different level 45 talent and the playstyle to go with it would still leave those issues in place. I even stated when in my post about the overall playstyle feel that it just might mean that the spec is just not for me anymore.

We will continue to discuss the class and its mechanics. You coming in here to tell us to not discuss it and imply it is a overall healer issue rather than a paladin issue is derailing the thread. Specific paladin mechanics, glyphs, overall playstyles, etc are paladin issues and should be discussed in a paladin thread. I do not see you running around other class threads stating they should not be talking about their class mechanics and feel of their classes, I don't see why you have this big urge to repeatedly come to the paladin forums to do it.

[Simulacrum]

blablab

You've gone from complaining about what people are posting in this thread to complaining about how you think all healing is boring now? What are you even doing here man?

"The best way" and "boring" are not synonymous.

[Dubalicious]

*snip*

Hoping to finally spend some time on beta soon, but what's the deal with "Cleave" in (some of?) those logs? I see huge amounts for Druid/Priest with nothing for Pally.

[Malthanis]

"The best way" and "boring" are not synonymous.

Going to echo this to you, Floopa. From tanking experience, knowing what you have to do (even if there's no change in the pattern) is very different from feeling satisfaction when pulling it off.

The last bit of serious raiding I did was Firelands. It got to a point where we had fights memorized and could do them half-asleep (some of us did, from time to time), but they were still satisfying to complete.

Knowing the "best way" to heal should still confer some sense of "sweet, I'm doing this right", not a sense of frustration that you're just floundering through the mechanics.

[Dubalicious]

there are ways they could make healing fun but ultimately the moment when "the best way" of healing (a fight, or in general) is figured out it becomes boring because you can't deviate because there's 0 point. ergo, 0 thought in healing.

This sounds like it's coming from somebody who's been doing the same encounters for almost a year =)

There's really no denying that healing is more fun when encounters are new, relatively difficult, and your entire raid is both learning and probably undergeared. The best encounters in this game would never allow you to "have a plan and never deviate from it" - this is certainly a situation we've ended up in currently, but it's ALWAYS this way this far into an expansion.

[Deleted]

Hoping to finally spend some time on beta soon, but what's the deal with "Cleave" in (some of?) those logs? I see huge amounts for Druid/Priest with nothing for Pally.

Chars copied from live with Thok trinket.

[paladative]

July 22nd BETA changes.... NOTHING WAS CHANGED FOR HOLY PALADINS, LOL WHAT?!?

Holy was mentioned, Light's Hammer now has a mana cost as big as holy radiance

[Xs]

Holy was mentioned, Light's Hammer now has a mana cost as big as holy radiance

Thats been in there a long time