[Holy] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[btard]

40% mana return is actually grossly overpowered, particularly with Flash of Light. If you cast FoL on a Beacon target, the effective FoL cost is reduced to ~3500 mana, which is only marginally more expensive than Holy Light/all other "efficient", slow heals. It becomes pretty close to spammable, and you still get the 50% transfer to your second beacon on top of that. The new playstyle will basically be that you only cast FoL on Beacon and only cast HL off Beacon. HL is so cheap (nearly mana neutral) to begin with that there won't be a point casting it on a Beacon over taking the double transfer. Of course, the new strategy will also be to just macro Beacon to Flash of Light.

I would not expect any compensatory adjustments to HP generation or to the power of HP finishers given how strong the 40% mana reduction is on FoL. Making your FoL on the verge of being spammable more than compensates for the HP generation loss. No other healer can afford to spam their flash heal equivalent to that extent.

You missed that Beacon costs mana now so the actual mana return on FoL when beacon macroing is insignificant. In fact, you'll have less mana now then before doing the same thing because the time spent casting a spell costing mana was used before casting a free Holy Power ability.

No healer wants to spam their Flash Heal to begin with because its not that efficient healing wise. Ofc you don't expect compensation because you're bias to your fotm class, but paladins weren't that far ahead last build on the PTR to get this nerfed without something back.

I actually want FoL-into-beacon to return a lot of mana because this will help with paladin single target hps and hpm. Other classes still heal one target for a greater amount.

[Floopa]

You missed that Beacon costs mana now so the actual mana return on FoL when beacon macroing is insignificant. In fact, you'll have less mana now then before doing the same thing because the time spent casting a spell costing mana was used before casting a free Holy Power ability.

No healer wants to spam their Flash Heal to begin with because its not that efficient healing wise. Ofc you don't expect compensation because you're bias to your fotm class, but paladins weren't that far ahead last build on the PTR to get this nerfed without something back.

i think paladins prior to this change probably had too much output, but i think it was balanced against not really having a strong raid CD. with this change i think, if nothing else happens with HP generation, it's more than fair that Devo Aura works on all dmg, ranged increased to 100 yards, and upped to 30% dmg reduction tbh.

like really, if your HP remains 1 per 6 sec why would you bring a holy pally to a raid? before you would do it because their output was really strong, but now it's gonna be trash. flash heal spam... the last spec which healed through their "quick heal" only was resto shamans during ulduar and they sucked massively.

[Deleted]

EF/LoD will be a little faster then 18 sec because HS proccs and we can potentially use the "saved" mana from healing the beacon directly to use on HR during burst/ HA.

[bouchbagfett]

I would like to see them remove HP generation from Holy Radiance and balance our HP finishers off of HS generation only. Maybe add a crit on holy shock increase the chance to reset its cd rather than a flat % as it is now. Then we would have haste and crit scale to increase HP generation. I would then like to see Holy Radiance interact with LoD. Right now there is too much "Spam EF" or do other spec and "Spam LoD" with little regard to right heal for the right type of damage. If LoD is crummy unless buffed by HR it would add synergy to AoE healing, and right now we have nearly none in regards to interesting AoE game play or throughput. I think it will also make the "if you take EF never use LoD" gameplay away.

[JanthuSC]

This just breaks any connection between melee (ret/prot) paladins and healing paladins.

Ret can get 3 Holy Power in 3 GCD for 14% of their mana where mana is meaningless.
Prot can get 3 Holy power in 3 GCD for 17% of their mana where they regen 15% in 2 seconds.
Holy can get 3 Holy Power in 3 GCD for 15.71% of their mana (full not base) where mana matters and we regen only around 3.1% in 5 seconds.

To stay mana neutral like the melee paladins we would have to slow to 3 Holy Power every 18 seconds for 4.4% mana by only using Holy Shock.

The melee paladins are constantly generating holy power and using it in a rotational basis while Holy Paladins are scraping the bottom of the barrel for mana or for holy power. I just don't see this going live and there has to be some additional changes coming.

[Deleted]

I would love something rewarding us HP for "good" gameplay rather than just random generation from crits. Something like casting FoL on a target below 50% health grants an HP, which would prevent people from abusing the system and allow us to generate a lot of HP for spread aoe situations or when the tanks get smashed.

I would then like to see Holy Radiance interact with LoD. Right now there is too much "Spam EF" or do other spec and "Spam LoD" with little regard to right heal for the right type of damage. If LoD is crummy unless buffed by HR it would add synergy to AoE healing, and right now we have nearly none in regards to interesting AoE game play or throughput. I think it will also make the "if you take EF never use LoD" gameplay away.

That would be cool, I've always hated the LoD vs EF situation.

[Deleted]

This just breaks any connection between melee (ret/prot) paladins and healing paladins.

Ret can get 3 Holy Power in 3 GCD for 14% of their mana where mana is meaningless.
Prot can get 3 Holy power in 3 GCD for 17% of their mana where they regen 15% in 2 seconds.
Holy can get 3 Holy Power in 3 GCD for 15.71% of their mana (full not base) where mana matters and we regen only around 3.1% in 5 seconds.

To stay mana neutral like the melee paladins we would have to slow to 3 Holy Power every 18 seconds for 4.4% mana by only using Holy Shock.

The melee paladins are constantly generating holy power and using it in a rotational basis while Holy Paladins are scraping the bottom of the barrel for mana or for holy power. I just don't see this going live and there has to be some additional changes coming.

So why would we want to compare mana usage of 3 different roles? I don't get your point.

[Deleted]

I would like to see them remove HP generation from Holy Radiance and balance our HP finishers off of HS generation only. Maybe add a crit on holy shock increase the chance to reset its cd rather than a flat % as it is now. Then we would have haste and crit scale to increase HP generation. I would then like to see Holy Radiance interact with LoD. Right now there is too much "Spam EF" or do other spec and "Spam LoD" with little regard to right heal for the right type of damage. If LoD is crummy unless buffed by HR it would add synergy to AoE healing, and right now we have nearly none in regards to interesting AoE game play or throughput. I think it will also make the "if you take EF never use LoD" gameplay away.

Given that there have been no further changes announced,what is your stance on SS? Clearly ToR is a nerf to our HP finishers and SH is practically useless for PvE,I'm thinking we're going to use SS instead

[JanthuSC]

The point is not to compare the mana usage, but the flow of the class. In Live you have a relatively similar style with generating holy power and spending it.

That is now broke in WoD due to these changes and significantly slows down the holy power generation of Holy Paladins while doing nothing to the melee paladins. Mana costs only matters for healers since the regen on DPS is intentionally broken and only matters if you burst or do things outside of role such as a Ret Paladin healing.

[mcbubble]

Call me crazy, but the only way to make this garbage attractive is to now make EF baseline.

[Floopa]

Call me crazy, but the only way to make this garbage attractive is to now make EF baseline.

or you let them experiment with ways to give you HP generation that isn't dumb and ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Call me crazy, but the only way to make this garbage attractive is to now make EF baseline.

I don't trust them to do anything logical, but this would be a solution, yes. If they can come up with another talent to replace EF. Maybe something to buff the finishers. Still boring, though.

If we have to work or wait for 18sec to build up enough HP for a finisher then better something meaningful happens if we cast it. Or we can go back to 1-2HP EF blanketing.

Usually I'm all for working with what is given to me, but the recent changes made me scratch my head.

[Deleted]

Well, I do understand that they might not want HP to work the same for holy as it does for the other 2 specs, but this is too slow. At least make critical hits double the HP generation (so HS and HR crits now give 2 HP). This would, again, make crit a bit more valuable while making the spec more dynamic.

For AoE, I'd love to see HR increasing the cap of LoD by 1, stacking infinitely.

[Deleted]

Call me crazy, but the only way to make this garbage attractive is to now make EF baseline.

This is a terrible sugestion. What do you expect to happen once EF is baseline? If your lucky you will get a balanced talent row but they will all be terrible. You will also end up with the same issue of EF vs LoD. What they need to do is rebalance all 3 talents and worst case remove EF entirely, we are not a hot healer and should not be casting this spell for the hots.

Same is true for the suggestions that keeps being posted about crit, right now haste, mastery and crit are as close to each other for holy paladins as they have ever been. Buffing crit would make it a lot better than all other stats and we would be back to stack x stat while ignoring z and y because only x is good.

Right now what needs to happen is either more holy power generation or stronger finishers. I prefer stronger finishers (200-300% buff) because it would allow for some very skillful play both in terms of overhealing but also in terms of using HR to gain holy power. If you spam HR to use on a ton of finishers you will be oom in 1min and have done very little healing because you just did 75% overhealing.

I would also like to see the AoE heal beacon tax removed to better balance WoG/EF vs LoD but also to improve the healing done from HR (it is very weak atm).

[Deleted]

This is a terrible sugestion. What do you expect to happen once EF is baseline? If your lucky you will get a balanced talent row but they will all be terrible. You will also end up with the same issue of EF vs LoD. What they need to do is rebalance all 3 talents and worst case remove EF entirely, we are not a hot healer and should not be casting this spell for the hots.

Same is true for the suggestions that keeps being posted about crit, right now haste, mastery and crit are as close to each other for holy paladins as they have ever been. Buffing crit would make it a lot better than all other stats and we would be back to stack x stat while ignoring z and y because only x is good.

Right now what needs to happen is either more holy power generation or stronger finishers. I prefer stronger finishers (200-300% buff) because it would allow for some very skillful play both in terms of overhealing but also in terms of using HR to gain holy power. If you spam HR to use on a ton of finishers you will be oom in 1min and have done very little healing because you just did 75% overhealing.

I would also like to see the AoE heal beacon tax removed to better balance WoG/EF vs LoD but also to improve the healing done from HR (it is very weak atm).

Amen.Although I disagree about the beacon tax being removed,since encouraging direct beacon healing for any reason is giving up on effective healing,which makes for a frustrating playstyle.

[Misjudged Maaanwell]

I guess I'm just confused about the "nice thing" we can't have. The hp generation from a macro? Being ahead of the other healers in output in spite of horrible gameplay? What part of the prior patches are you really going to miss?

I'm coming from a point of I enjoyed the trade off. I enjoyed generating HP from healing the beacon target, because it insures by focusing on the beacon for 2-3 casts i can now dump HP to save several raid members at low health with phat EF's. All the while spamming HS off CD to any such dunder fuck still standing in fire. Or Atleast thats how I enjoyed my sparse moments of healing in MOP. This is very much the Adam & Eve situation. Was the apple there? Yes. Was it addressed? Yes. Did we willingly bite because selfishness? Yes.... This is why we can't have nice things

[paladative]

40% mana...

These numbers are to be tuned

[Pasture]

Hmmmm, I did make a post about how the mana returns on beacon might help cement us into a tank healing (/someone is getting hit like a truck and needs spamming) role but it appears that post has been deleted without any notification.

I do like the idea that the new ToR acts like an oh shit button for us. We can spam FL on the beacon without worrying too much, or any raid mechanics that focus heavy damage on a target, throw the beacon on them and spam. It gives us a little niche. I'm not saying it's the best niche, but it's a niche and potentially something we can do better than anyone else.

[Clrg]

The change can work if they buff everything else, included EF and LoD, make it a strong finisher and not something we can spam.

[Deleted]

The change can work if they buff everything else, included EF and LoD, make it a strong finisher and not something we can spam.

We can't spam it anyway if we don't want to cast it with only 1 or 2 HP