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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyldor View Post
    A tier 45 talent revamp is really unlikely to change that way, because you have to remember that there are 2 other specs in the paladin class. We should at least be happy that there is 1 talent that is good for us. Do you think rets would be happy when their only real heal (with no cast) would require them to spend HP? I don't think so. You can't just change something without thinking about the others affected by the change. I don't really think you could split the talent tree either (like at the 100 talents), because then everyone else would want that too.
    All the lvl 100 talents change dynamically based on spec, it'd be very feasible to have Ret still able to take Selfless Healer, while removing it entirely for Holy (and probably Prot). If other specs want what Ret has thats great, but they don't get to have it, its quite simple. Same way Ret would miss out on the AoE EF described by bouch.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    Did all of you guys hate the tier 14 and 15 model of Hpally? Besides losing two cooldowns and finishers having a cast time, it is pretty much the exact same thing. Do the finishers having a cast time really ruin the class that much for you??
    Having access to several cooldowns allows for more decision making than the other way around, T14-15 also still had the strong daybreak, it didn't feature neutered hands, bubble was still able to non-arbitrarily block dangerous raid mechanics, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting right now. Adding up all that with the removal of instant cast finishers and calling it "pretty much the exact same thing" is... infraction-worthy in its description.

    But yes, not having finishers be instant cast is a huge deal. This completely changes how I play the class. Not only does supplying the heal instantly matter a lot, but just as importantly - every time you cast an instant finisher is a moment you're able to move for at least 1-1.5 seconds, which over the course of a fight adds up to a lot and often means you're able to continuously cast through the entire thing, since you can portion out your movement and throw in instants during it. It also allows you to prepare for movement by saving up HoPo (and cooldowns) for those moments, to allow you to heal while moving for an extended period of time.

    I find this to be engaging and entertaining gameplay that rewards the player for knowing the fights and playing well a lot more than simply the dichotomy of either stand still and cast spells or run around not casting spells. It also is less punishing for inexperienced or less skilled players, since mistakes can be compensated for with the ability to cast while unexpectedly having to move. So I don't see how the new model is better for anyone, except maybe pvpers who want to crush hpaladins more than they already are.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Simulacrum View Post
    Having access to several cooldowns allows for more decision making than the other way around, T14-15 also still had the strong daybreak, it didn't feature neutered hands, bubble was still able to non-arbitrarily block dangerous raid mechanics, and probably a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting right now. Adding up all that with the removal of instant cast finishers and calling it "pretty much the exact same thing" is... infraction-worthy in its description.

    But yes, not having finishers be instant cast is a huge deal. This completely changes how I play the class. Not only does supplying the heal instantly matter a lot, but just as importantly - every time you cast an instant finisher is a moment you're able to move for at least 1-1.5 seconds, which over the course of a fight adds up to a lot and often means you're able to continuously cast through the entire thing, since you can portion out your movement and throw in instants during it. It also allows you to prepare for movement by saving up HoPo (and cooldowns) for those moments, to allow you to heal while moving for an extended period of time.

    I find this to be engaging and entertaining gameplay that rewards the player for knowing the fights and playing well a lot more than simply the dichotomy of either stand still and cast spells or run around not casting spells. It also is less punishing for inexperienced or less skilled players, since mistakes can be compensated for with the ability to cast while unexpectedly having to move. So I don't see how the new model is better for anyone, except maybe pvpers who want to crush hpaladins more than they already are.
    IMHO, it's not just losing two CDs and having cast times on our finishers that have us worried. It's more than that.

    Currently in MOP, Selfless Healer is king (except for Malk). In WoD SH is so gutted that nobody will take it (no HP on judgement I believe).
    We're pigeon-holed into taking EF in 25m, which means we 'raid heal' by blanketing the raid (or EF the beacons and LoD the raid).

    Also, another point: encounters/healing has changed in WoD all together. We can no longer absorb all mechanics with a disc priest and we're in a constant triage. As Aladya has said earlier, we're basically parasites.

    I also think that a lot of the holy paladin community wasn't happy with our play-style in T14/15. Putting EF on the entire raid was 'okay' when mastery would refresh with hot ticks, but when they changed that (and the combination that SH was so strong), everyone switched to SH. We've also always had concern with our CDs. Tranq/Revival/HT/Halo (lul, not even a true 'CD') provide a ton of throughput with one click. We don't have this option unfortunately. Don't get me wrong: Devo is awesome (though it doesn't provide throughput) and in the past it was usable by all paladins. In WoD only holy can devo (though I honestly think they'll give it to ret...they need SOME kind of raid utility). Our worry about CDs has been addressed many times over in other forum posts.

    All of this just means that we're concerned that we'll be sat or asked to re-roll for progression.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    @ mcbubble, I appreciate your passion for the class, I really do, but non-constructive attacks on others isn't helping anything or anyone. Please don't sink down to Floopa's level.

    Edited: And not just at you, but at some others too.
    Good point, and noted.

  4. #644
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Xs View Post
    All the lvl 100 talents change dynamically based on spec, it'd be very feasible to have Ret still able to take Selfless Healer, while removing it entirely for Holy (and probably Prot). If other specs want what Ret has thats great, but they don't get to have it, its quite simple. Same way Ret would miss out on the AoE EF described by bouch.
    I don't think you really understand my post. I touched on that type of talent tree, but I said that other classes would want a split talent tree as well, as we're not the only class that has talents that are not feasible for a spec or another. It would just give a lot more trouble to the devs.

  5. #645
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by mcbubble View Post
    IMHO, it's not just losing two CDs and having cast times on our finishers that have us worried. It's more than that.

    Currently in MOP, Selfless Healer is king (except for Malk). In WoD SH is so gutted that nobody will take it (no HP on judgement I believe).
    We're pigeon-holed into taking EF in 25m, which means we 'raid heal' by blanketing the raid (or EF the beacons and LoD the raid).

    Also, another point: encounters/healing has changed in WoD all together. We can no longer absorb all mechanics with a disc priest and we're in a constant triage. As Aladya has said earlier, we're basically parasites.

    I also think that a lot of the holy paladin community wasn't happy with our play-style in T14/15. Putting EF on the entire raid was 'okay' when mastery would refresh with hot ticks, but when they changed that (and the combination that SH was so strong), everyone switched to SH. We've also always had concern with our CDs. Tranq/Revival/HT/Halo (lul, not even a true 'CD') provide a ton of throughput with one click. We don't have this option unfortunately. Don't get me wrong: Devo is awesome (though it doesn't provide throughput) and in the past it was usable by all paladins. In WoD only holy can devo (though I honestly think they'll give it to ret...they need SOME kind of raid utility). Our worry about CDs has been addressed many times over in other forum posts.

    All of this just means that we're concerned that we'll be sat or asked to re-roll for progression.
    i agree on most of it.

    Though the last 1 i think the changes wont be nice ... and healing will get really... forced to stand still (while im the jumpy type) but i still think we can be a good viable option in raids.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyldor View Post
    I don't think you really understand my post. I touched on that type of talent tree, but I said that other classes would want a split talent tree as well, as we're not the only class that has talents that are not feasible for a spec or another. It would just give a lot more trouble to the devs.
    Other classes have that already, Priests and Druids for instance

  7. #647
    Daybreak wasn't even 5% of our healing in t14 and t15. It's only use was refreshing mastery. I already stated the lose of cooldowns and I agree that it sucks. The play style/ rotation is virtually the same. Instead of hr as our generator, we holy light our second beacon. Let me know when you come up with those other changes.


    Edit: our ef hot is 32 seconds long. Before movement comes why not get 5 to 7 efs rolling . Pool hpower. Holy shock, finisher, t90 all during the movement. If you can't get a 1.5 second cast off with speed of light then that is an entire other set of problems unless the fight literally doesn't allow it.
    Last edited by Virsta1; 2014-07-29 at 03:42 PM.
    I love holy paladin and holy paladin culture.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    Daybreak wasn't even 5% of our healing in t14 and t15. It's only use was refreshing mastery. I already stated the lose of cooldowns and I agree that it sucks. The play style/ rotation is virtually the same. Instead of hr as our generator, we holy light our second beacon. Let me know when you come up with those other changes.


    Edit: our ef hot is 32 seconds long. Before movement comes why not get 5 to 7 efs rolling . Pool hpower. Holy shock, finisher, t90 all during the movement. If you can't get a 1.5 second cast off with speed of light then that is entire other set of problems.
    Look a few posts up - I already commented on this

  9. #649
    So you just want another t45 talent to become more viable ?


    Edit: as for aladya thinking we are going to be a parasite. I just can't see it. Maybe for the top .0001% who do cutting edge progression paladins might not be viable on a couple fights but that is how its been for every tier with at least one healing class . For 99.99% of the posters here paladin will be perfectly fine and viable.
    Last edited by Virsta1; 2014-07-29 at 03:57 PM.
    I love holy paladin and holy paladin culture.

  10. #650
    I honestly don't think it's a big change from current content, instead of just casting HR I'm instead casting BoF+HL, but I had hoped for a change which is why I am "sad". It is a quite big change in that it feels clunkier (because of cast time), but at the end of the day I think it's actually the lack of change that has left me disappointed rather than (almost non-existant) changes.

  11. #651
    also don't forget several of our spells should be scaled up with members in raid

  12. #652
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    How about no....

    Scaling spells for the raid size was one of Blizzard's biggest mistakes this expansion.

  13. #653
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    Maybe for the top .0001% who do cutting edge progression paladins might not be viable on a couple fights but that is how its been for every tier with at least one healing class . For 99.99% of the posters here paladin will be perfectly fine and viable.
    This . I dont get why you guys worry so much about paladins . Healers balance REALLY matter for maybe 5-10 guilds on the world . Every additional week with extra gear let you heal with w/e healers setup you want . I have really good laugh when i open that topic .

    I know gameplay of paladin is boring right now , but you wont change it . That part of tuning is over imo and if you really expect some big changes in that part you should stop dreaming . There will be only numbers tunning but wouldnt expect too much besides druid nerf . Sad but true .

    And also "parasite" word is not really 100% accurate tbh ;p . We are doing some not bad numbers ( its normal mode but w/e ) but atleast i dont have feeling im healing something useful. Only blanketing raid with EF and spam holy light . But as i said - i dont expect some changes in that part .

    Also #FreeFloopa2K14
    Last edited by mmoc68a6740eb5; 2014-07-29 at 04:52 PM.

  14. #654
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Miskat0nic View Post
    I honestly don't think it's a big change from current content, instead of just casting HR I'm instead casting BoF+HL, but I had hoped for a change which is why I am "sad". It is a quite big change in that it feels clunkier (because of cast time), but at the end of the day I think it's actually the lack of change that has left me disappointed rather than (almost non-existant) changes.
    I feel the same, nothing really exciting, same old same old...

    Quote Originally Posted by bouchbagette View Post
    Revamp Tier 45: Make all the talents in this tier modify Word of Glory. Make Selfless Healer "Splashing Healer" (stupid name) so that WoG acts like a HR. Keep Eternal Flame as is. Make Sacred Shield "Sacred Flame" and have Word of Glory apply a properly balanced sacred shield. WoG by itself is just too boring/weak for our main HP finisher. Having a way to pick the bonus to it can make for more interesting min/max and change how we play without a total gutting of the mechanics like SH to EF is now. Should be far easier to balance.
    That makes a lot of sense. I also never really liked the fact that talents from the same row could be active or passive, which is the case for all of them except for the lvl 90 row. So much for bringing down the number of key bindings we need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virsta1 View Post
    For 99.99% of the posters here paladin will be perfectly fine and viable.
    Viable, probably for most of us. Fine is whole nother story.

  15. #655
    umm... ok... I try not to post here myself since I don't have beta invite (hue hue).. I do come over here though to read what knowledgeable players who are in beta can tell me with regards to state of healing and paladins in the game. Recent inflow of people who should really stick to trolling general forums with "LOL. Nothing matters. You won't change anything anyway. Everything is fine" is getting frustrating. You aren't helping anyone by any means.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Miskat0nic View Post
    I honestly don't think it's a big change from current content, instead of just casting HR I'm instead casting BoF+HL, but I had hoped for a change which is why I am "sad". It is a quite big change in that it feels clunkier (because of cast time), but at the end of the day I think it's actually the lack of change that has left me disappointed rather than (almost non-existant) changes.

    a thousand time this!

    i dont think paladins won't be viable... i know blizzard can and will tune down numbers about right.
    I care about mechanics, and paladin mechanics are royally screwed...

    and tbh... i think every HP i've seen or talk about is using them same t100 talent with 1 glyph and macro.... if you need to do that it's bad design...

    You should not be forced to actually misuse a talent by using a glyph to generate more HP but actually ignore the original benefit from it. (Beacon is originally meant to be taken if you have 2 tanks who take dmg in at the same time, while the other talent is meant to be taken if you need to heal the group -or at least that's my understanding of how the developers want it to be)



    edit: and thanks to Astraios for posting positive feedback! i don't really agree with you but it was a perfectly fine post with a lot of good information! And something different than "it sucks" "stop whining nothing will change!" we had for 30pages
    Last edited by Bloodorem; 2014-07-29 at 05:09 PM.

  17. #657
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berrek View Post
    This . I dont get why you guys worry so much about paladins . Healers balance REALLY matter for maybe 5-10 guilds on the world . Every additional week with extra gear let you heal with w/e healers setup you want . I have really good laugh when i open that topic .

    I know gameplay of paladin is boring right now , but you wont change it . That part of tuning is over imo and if you really expect some big changes in that part you should stop dreaming . There will be only numbers tunning but wouldnt expect too much besides druid nerf . Sad but true .

    And also "parasite" word is not really 100% accurate tbh ;p . We are doing some not bad numbers ( its normal mode but w/e ) but atleast i dont have feeling im healing something useful. Only blanketing raid with EF and spam holy light . But as i said - i dont expect some changes in that part .

    Also #FreeFloopa2K14
    I don't know, maybe because we don't find the class and rotation fun. Man I don't know how many more times this needs to be said. And your opinion on mechanics being over is false when it was stated last week it was not over.
    Last edited by Freia; 2014-07-29 at 05:25 PM.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Berrek View Post
    This . I dont get why you guys worry so much about paladins . Healers balance REALLY matter for maybe 5-10 guilds on the world . Every additional week with extra gear let you heal with w/e healers setup you want . I have really good laugh when i open that topic .
    Um..maybe because we play a paladin?

    ANY guild that wants to have a decent ranking/progression will bring the healer with the most throughput to minimize the # of healers they bring and to maximize the # of dps they need. If our wonky mechanics limit our healing/utility (and I'm not talking about healing #s), then any decent guild will bring another healer.

    TLDR: We care because we're paladins and we don't want to be sat.

  19. #659
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Freia View Post
    I don't know, maybe because we don't find the class and rotation fun. Man I don't know how many more times this needs to be said.
    Can you tell me a difference between spamming HR and blanketing EF during whole MoP and spamming beacon+HL and blanketing EF on beta ? Its exactly same shit .

  20. #660
    Do you find the class play style/ rotation fun right now? Because it is the exact same thing. If you are not having fun with the class anymore it's simply time to reroll, not beg for the whole class to be overhauled.
    I love holy paladin and holy paladin culture.

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