[Holy] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Deleted]

I don't think that the insta-casts are coming back though.

Oh, they will. It's just a matter of time.

They want to go back to early cata healing, but even in 4.1 and 4.2 we were much more mobile than we're in WoD beta (fínishers were instant and we had 2 short movement CDs (HR + Divine Protection through old Speed of Light talent)). And even in this timeframe holy paladins were considered quite immobile in comparison to druids.

[Deleted]

The level 45 talent changes you mentioned have already been discussed. You have to remember that the talents must fit for all 3 specs. I don't think rets would care much for splash. And please do explain what the difference between the other 2 is. Both are a hot, yet 1 also has real healing in it, while the other is a pure shield. Not much of a difference if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong. I dislike the current state of the level 45 tier now, but I don't think this is the solution. What I would much rather like, is have SH apply to HL andHR as well again, and make that our go to for long fights. Make EF baseline and replace it with "Light's wisdom" - Your next HP healing ability will cast as if you had 3 more HP (max 6HP) 1,5 min cd. That way we have a new CD, which we lack now... to deal with big ST damage, or have some kind of AoE burst. This talent should be tuned by making the CD longer. SS is okayish as is. I don't really like it, but it's an ok option atm.

AoE healing is garbage atm and we truly need some attention.

I don't care which finisher they buff so long as Radiance is relegated to only emergency AoE damage in favor of Holy Light and Flash. I simply prefer the PVE Holy Pally to perform more like the PVP version. If that's the only issue you guys are upset about I'm more than content for them to make a synergy between the two finishers so spamming one only isn't optimal.

Um... there's a difference between PvP and PvE... One has 2-3 players the other has 20+.Ofc there are battle-grounds and the sort, but the damaged is again focused on single target healing. You can and will never be able to compare PvP healing to PvE and you shouldn't. The entire idea of HR is to be used when more than 3 people in a small area all take damage at the same time, and it's fine that way.

While I do agree that the spam we got to in 5.4 is really dumb, we should have a AoE spell that is not on some sort of CD (HP for FoL). We can all agree that HR as is must be changed, but we need to be able to compete for our roster spot so I really don't think that putting a CD on it will help us.

[Freia]

The level 45 talent changes you mentioned have already been discussed. You have to remember that the talents must fit for all 3 specs.

Just because it has been discussed does not mean the topic has to be over. Also the talents do not have to fit each spec. Have you completely not noticed that they have been separating the talents between specs/roles now? They already realized trying to make each talent work for every spec/role was not working.

[Perkunas]

Um... there's a difference between PvP and PvE... One has 2-3 players the other has 20+.Ofc there are battle-grounds and the sort, but the damaged is again focused on single target healing. You can and will never be able to compare PvP healing to PvE and you shouldn't. The entire idea of HR is to be used when more than 3 people in a small area all take damage at the same time, and it's fine that way.

While I do agree that the spam we got to in 5.4 is really dumb, we should have a AoE spell that is not on some sort of CD (HP for FoL). We can all agree that HR as is must be changed, but we need to be able to compete for our roster spot so I really don't think that putting a CD on it will help us.

The HR spam has been out of control since the Dragon Soul patch as many people have pointed out. The second they released the genie from the bottle by removing it's cooldown it's been the primary spam spell. The videos I showed highlight the difference between what still felt like a Holy Paladin in tier 12 and what it's become now. It doesn't feel like the class that I rolled in Vanilla at all. Hell, it doesn't even resemble the class that I progression raided with for six years beyond the terrible-looking armor every other tier. Almost every other healer in the game save the Disc Priest still feels familiar to people who had played it for years and this is a problem. The early-mid Cata Holy Paladin should be the model they strive for where your builders are Holy Shock and Holy Light on the beacons HR needs to be something that you'd never want to use except for times of extreme AoE damage.

Perhaps it's as simple as removing the HP generation from the spell and slightly bumping the healing but keeping the high mana cost.

[Pasture]

Perhaps it's as simple as removing the HP generation from the spell and slightly bumping the healing but keeping the high mana cost.

We can't afford HR spam for HP at the moment. It's second beacon macro spam now. But ultimately the same problem. Until they make HL / FoL just generate 1HP as standard the class is doomed to the same problems that has plagued it for years now. Celestalon says it's min-maxing but ultimately it's just bad play.

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PS. Maybe since Celestalon is replying in blue posts point by point in some classes someone with access to the US BETA forums could rustle up a big Holy Paladin post point by point in a similar style.

[Perkunas]

We can't afford HR spam for HP at the moment. It's second beacon macro spam now. But ultimately the same problem. Until they make HL / FoL just generate 1HP as standard the class is doomed to the same problems that has plagued it for years now. Celestalon says it's min-maxing but ultimately it's just bad play.

Currently, you're right they can't spam HR, but as we've seen with the last time they tried the "triage model" eventually mindless AoE spamming finds a way.

[Virsta1]

Currently, you're right they can't spam HR, but as we've seen with the last time they tried the "triage model" eventually mindless AoE spamming finds a way.

The triage model was fine in cata until they changed holy radiance in 4.3. I don't think hr spam will find a way this expansion unless we get some changes to holy radiance. Right now it is almost not even worth casting except with cooldowns. It is in the same boat as lod but for different reasons.

[Perkunas]

The triage model was fine in cata until they changed holy radiance in 4.3. I don't think hr spam will find a way this expansion unless we get some changes to holy radiance. Right now it is almost not even worth casting except with cooldowns. It is in the same boat as lod but for different reasons.

Would you be happy with a early/mid Cata Holy healing model? I know there are people in here that gasp at the thought of having to cast single target heals somewhat often.

[Virsta1]

Would you be happy with a early/mid Cata Holy healing model? I know there are people in here that gasp at the thought of having to cast single target heals somewhat often.

I have zero problems with the current model of hpally. I do think something needs to be done with holy radiance though. The best implementation of it was in t11 and t12. They also need to not make ef better then lod in 90% of the situations. It is probably asking for to much rright now though.

[Simulacrum]

I know there are people in here that gasp at the thought of having to cast single target heals somewhat often.

I challenge you to find anything in this thread to justify that statement.

[Perkunas]

I have zero problems with the current model of hpally. I do think something needs to be done with holy radiance though. The best implementation of it was in t11 and t12. They also need to not make ef better then lod in 90% of the situations. It is probably asking for to much rright now though.

So you're for the cooldown and increased effectiveness. I like that way as well and I'll tell you that LoD is garbage in beta atm. Of all the spells that one needs a buff.

I challenge you to find anything in this thread to justify that statement.

The people lamenting niche roles and tank healing.

[Pasture]

The people lamenting niche roles and tank healing.

I find the idea of raid spot healing much more appealing than AoE raid healing. In many ways I preferred our old 'turn it on for 10 seconds' Holy Radiance.

I see Paladins as spot healers that provide excellent tank support through beacons. To do this role properly, however, the beacon macro nonsense needs to go and HL / FoL need to generate HP by default. Then we fulfill the role properly. They also need to vastly improve LoD so we have some decent burst AoE capability.

As for slapping a cooldown on HR, I'm not against it in principle but it doesn't make sense with the current HR, which is already severely limited by positioning. If you want to put a 15 second cooldown on HR then have it with a vastly increased healing range and have it generate 3HP, and then that's something more along the lines of what I can get on board with.

They just need to kill being able to cheese HP generation through beacon / HR. It's preventing us from truly developing a role.

[nightfalls]

1) HR should be the spell to cast if you have a clump of at least 4 people that it won't overheal. That's even if the result is "spamming" it.

2) Nobody has said that single target healing shouldn't be worth casting. It's just that it should be used because you want to use it, not because you can ONLY use it. The first fix, making single target abilities not shit, was already done.

The other fix would not be class-based, but encounter based. People should use ST heals because encounters strain tanks (tank damage, of course) and single targets (i.e. periodic large damage to random targets, fixates, putting scary DoTs on random raid members). Not, again, because you're corralled into using it.

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If you want to put a 15 second cooldown on HR, vastly increase the range it heals over and have it generate 3HP, then that's something more along the lines of what I can get on board with.

I wouldn't make it generate 3 HP, but the "old" Holy Radiance, perhaps with 30 yards range instead of 10, wouldn't be a bad ability. But I think it would be too strong compared to the current HR. The current HR is fine, it just needs to be tuned to heal more so it's actually worth using in the situation I described, while still coming with a limitation (you need clumps).

[Deleted]

Less homogenization and more niche roles (tank/raid healers) is a good thing (and a consolidated 20 man mythic mode would allow this model once again), but Blizzard doesn't seem to have great intentions to revive it with WoD.

Right now it's only about tuning not mechanics (let alone reworking).

[nightfalls]

Less homogenization and more niche roles (tank/raid healers) is a good thing (and a consolidated 20 man mythic mode would allow this model once again), but Blizzard doesn't seem to have great intentions to revive it with WoD.

That requires that everybody have their niche role (which means nerfing everybody) and requires that encounters require the niches.

In 2014, the result otherwise will be that class stacking and benching becomes the requirement. Top guilds already require most of their players to be good at multiple classes for this reason, and it will just "trickle down" to other guilds as they feel the need to emulate the top guilds (even if that "need" isn't really a "need" it's still felt). That or if other classes are NOT "corralled" into a role, it means the "corralled" class is just plain out worse. See Resto shaman pre-T16.

End result is that players don't really have fun.

[Deleted]

You guys have to remember we went from Triage to the MoP style AoE healing during cataclysm. I would put the blame on Dragonsoul and not on the HR change itself. Sure it allowed us to use it more often but unless my memory is failing me we started receiving a lot more AOE dmg. From doing Firelands where you had to cast so many holy lights to stacking up so often in DS that HR was just way more efficient.

[Juicyjonny]

or C take their ability to kill a boss or clear a dungeon as a sign of viability in high level progression.

These are the worst kinds of players who just assume that they're doing amazing because they're in a group/raid that completed some event/boss kill.

"We didn't wipe! and the boss died so drop it! NO BIG DEAL!"
"Numbers don't matter!! As long as the boss dies!"
"Improving myself to be a better healer... but why when the other 24 players can carry me? HEHEHEHEHHEHEE"

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I don't care which finisher they buff so long as Radiance is relegated to only emergency AoE damage in favor of Holy Light and Flash. I simply prefer the PVE Holy Pally to perform more like the PVP version. If that's the only issue you guys are upset about I'm more than content for them to make a synergy between the two finishers so spamming one only isn't optimal.

Emergency healing???

PVE Holy Paladin to be like the PVP Holy paladin???

Did you stop to read what you wrote? Having paladins heal like a pvp holy paladin would be awesome if raids consisted of 3-5 people... but they don't. This makes no sense.

And yes, if you are healing a raid of 20 players, I'm sorry, but you should expect to use your AoE. Otherwise you don't belong in a raid, and should stick to PvP. This is coming from someone that plays and enjoys playing both.

Other healers don't expect their classes to do the same things in PvP and PvE, and with good reason.

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HR should be reserved for OH SHIT moments. It shouldn't be the go to spell in all situations. Spamming it constantly is even more mindless than Holy Light spam ever was even in Wrath because at least we had to manage some damn cooldowns to maintain mana. The playstyle has been so boring since they took HR off of a CD. If they buff HR it should go back on the old cooldown so spells like Holy Light and Flash aren't simply tossed aside. Currently I've been messing around with Holy in the beta and I've found even the 5-man dungeons to be more exciting and fun than any raid I attempted after Dragon Soul was released on a Holy Paladin. Even though my experience with raiding since Dragon Soul on a Holy Paladin has been limited, but I know for damn sure every single log I read HL and FoL are hardly if ever used. Buff LoD for AoE heals, give it a synergy with EF, buff HR to be worth the cast but bring back that damn CD or buff the cost even more so you would never spam it for anything other than a super emergency.

Hell, I'd take the 4.0 Holy Paladin over the spam the HR Pally. With the death of 10-man progression healers no longer have to be jacks of all trades. A return to a semi-niche that Holy Paladins occupied in Cata prior to the HR spamfest would make players like myself quite happy again.

I can't be the only one who feels that this is more compelling


Than this style

Yeah it looks like those paladins are doing great on the meter... Fantastic example.

[Perkunas]

I mention PVP because it actually feels like a Holy Paladin. It felt like the class that existed until 4.3. This HR spamming abomination that you seem to like is not what the class was ever supposed to be and I'm glad that Blizzard looks to be killing it with fire on beta. Also, if we're going to make it about the meter Holy Paladins dominated meters in Wrath where they only ever spammed Holy Light. Let's go back to that then...

[Deleted]

I tried some 3v3 on beta, with hopes on each new build to have some Holy changes (Dispel protection for our big CD? Bigger healing output because we are full cast now?), and they don't happen.
I'm still having hope for the "number tuning", because, we are not, not, absolutly not rewarded for casting and fake casting in the actual build compared to others.

For PvP, it's like being the actual Rsham, a real good target to train, but without the huge and smart heal rsham have in live, without anything attractive...
Hpal are in a terrible state in live server (Because we bring anything better and unique compared to others - we are just a bad replacement in 98% of actual teams), it's gonna get worse with WoD.

Having to use Avenging Wrath and Trinket at the beginning against any competent team because you don't have enough healing even on full cast is scary.

For the first time after 10 years of paladin, i'm thinking of playing serioulsy another class. (Rdruid, they always seems wanted and powerful since TBC in arenas...)

Edit : Change the talent Beacon of Insight, make it baseline, benefit from glyph of BoL, increase direct healing by 50%, don't jump, and can't be use in the same time as Beacon of Light/Faith - I would love to have an option to disable this "crap" spell which are the main reason our direct healing spell are completly low in PvP. The number are hypothetical, but the idea is here.
Beacon of Light is perhaps a cool spell, but in PvP, every single of our casted heal (Flash of Light / Divine Light) must be on the Beacon, to have 1 HP.

Being the only healer which have to cast? Why not. Give me the biggest and the most terrifying healing output of all then. (And not being outheal by 2 rejuv and a lifebloom ._.)

[Freia]

I mention PVP because it actually feels like a Holy Paladin. It felt like the class that existed until 4.3. This HR spamming abomination that you seem to like is not what the class was ever supposed to be and I'm glad that Blizzard looks to be killing it with fire on beta. Also, if we're going to make it about the meter Holy Paladins dominated meters in Wrath where they only ever spammed Holy Light. Let's go back to that then...

We get it Holy Radiance is an abomination that killed your whole family! Seriously your HR hate you have spewed the last few pages is getting beyond ridiculous. I hated DS HR spam as well but damn calm down.

DS HR spam is very different from MoP "HR spam". In DS HR was flat out spammed because it healed for a ton. In MoP, HR is filler between HS(and judgment in the case of Selfless Healer) to get holy power. So now in WoD we go from HS-HR-HR-EF to HS-HL-HL-EF, that isn't more engaging at all(and not that much different really). HR isn't worth using in WoD because it is terrible. It needs to be buffed so that it is good for AoE situations so we actually have a choice and get rewarded for using it effectively. PVE isn't PVP so don't expect it to be.

Just because we want HR to be effective does not mean we want to spam it and completely ignore HL and FoL. We want a balance.