1. #2121
    Quote Originally Posted by Argonia View Post
    Yes I agree with you. For the first time since TBC I am considering rerolling to a dps :'(
    Yesterday I got a Beta invite (yey thank you Wowhead) and I tried holy priest. It was awful. Maybe because of my lack of addons or maybe because the tank wasn't moving much I had to spam mostly flash heal to keep him alive.
    I wouldn't judge healing based on beta dungeons- they scale your gear down really far to the level that someone who bought a boosted 90 and started questing would have. I'm a pretty experienced healer, and I've had plenty of wipes in dungeons. A lot of them have difficult mechanics, and many of them are designed around tanks using active mitigation and turning mobs and bosses from the rest of the group. If you get a tank who is just used to MoP heroics, which you can sleepwalk through, it won't be possible for you to heal the damage.

  2. #2122
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowset View Post
    I wouldn't judge healing based on beta dungeons- they scale your gear down really far to the level that someone who bought a boosted 90 and started questing would have. I'm a pretty experienced healer, and I've had plenty of wipes in dungeons. A lot of them have difficult mechanics, and many of them are designed around tanks using active mitigation and turning mobs and bosses from the rest of the group. If you get a tank who is just used to MoP heroics, which you can sleepwalk through, it won't be possible for you to heal the damage.
    Not if you play holy priest or resto druid. I got multiple tanks who could only keep aggro on one add at a time, and the rest were just wailing on the group.

    Was a breeze for my holy priest, but not holy pally.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  3. #2123
    High Overlord Juicyjonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paladative View Post
    It is most likely other healer also believe tank healing be the paladin job, so they leave it to you
    What guilds are you apart of that simply just go "Oh, we have a paladin in the raid. He can heal the tank." ???????

    The same goes for when there is AoE, the paladins don't simply go "Oh, we have a shaman in the raid, I won't bother AoE healing."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akam3x View Post
    Not what my question was.How many classes actually put up decent tank healing,AoE healing and heal on the move altogether out of the 6? Paladins sure don't...but most others don't either.
    You have the mindset of a vanilla player. There is no "TANK DESIGNATED HEALER" so stop trying to create that category.
    14/14HM Holy Paladin

  4. #2124
    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    What guilds are you apart of that simply just go "Oh, we have a paladin in the raid. He can heal the tank." ???????
    For fights that feature high and spikey tank damage, the guilds I have been in usually assign the paladin(s) to heal the tank. That doesn't mean the poor sods can only heal the tank and nothing else, but rather as long the tank doesn't die to anything that isn't to do with 1 shot, enrage or lack of active mitigations/cooldowns, we don't care what the paladins do, which means they are more than welcome, or rather expected to heal the raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    The same goes for when there is AoE, the paladins don't simply go "Oh, we have a shaman in the raid, I won't bother AoE healing."
    Pretty sure this is just hyperbole. You need to stop exaggerating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post
    You have the mindset of a vanilla player. There is no "TANK DESIGNATED HEALER" so stop trying to create that category.
    This only goes as far as whether Blizzard decides there should be one or not. Not you.
    Last edited by PosPosPos; Yesterday at 06:17 PM.
    To be human is to possess superior intelligence to other species, yet channel that otherwise-wondrous potential into the most degenerate of endeavors rather than benefiting the world.

  5. #2125
    Brewmaster Perkunas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juicyjonny View Post

    You have the mindset of a vanilla player. There is no "TANK DESIGNATED HEALER" so stop trying to create that category.
    Um, Vanilla? Try Vanilla, BC, and Wrath. The Paladin was even tank healing quite a bit up until DS when SPAM THE RADIANCE became standard. If you're going to sit here and tell me the Holy Paladin has been at it's most fun mechanically post-DS you're a mad man.
    Don't blame the casuals for making Warcraft worse. It's the unskilled masses who refuse to improve themselves and Blizzard who has decided to bribe these folks with an endless shower of purples that should draw the ire of both casual and hardcore alike. It was never about "seeing the content" for these people it's always been about the gear and their sense of entitlement.

  6. #2126
    It's not that it was/is at it's zenith now. It's just that they have made changes to the other classes and to the raid encounters that has made constant moving and AOE damage an integral component to the encounter design. They have also upped the ability for other classes to tank heal, while giving tanks a lot more survivability and self-healing, even after the nerfs. Bottom line is, we just don't need tank healers anymore and any healer is going to be expected to put out a lot of AOE healing. So with that, why would you want to gimp a class by making them under-perform in the encounters the way they were designed? How the hell are we supposed to complete heroic dungeons, not to mention Challenge Modes?

  7. #2127
    Quote Originally Posted by Perkunas View Post
    Um, Vanilla? Try Vanilla, BC, and Wrath. The Paladin was even tank healing quite a bit up until DS when SPAM THE RADIANCE became standard. If you're going to sit here and tell me the Holy Paladin has been at it's most fun mechanically post-DS you're a mad man.
    Thankfully in WotLK we got good spot healing support through Beacon, so fights where only one tank was taking damage at a time were great for us to toss some heals on single raid members taking damage.

    But yeah, as-is holy's mechanics just plain suck to play even if the final numbers on certain things like tank healing might compete. Our AoE healing is still shit because our heals there are tied to HoPo either by generating it or using it. If we had some way to AoE heal without using HR, LoD, or Daybreak (or cooldowns like LH), then we'd likely be much better because we could have SOMETHING to cast without having to worry about HoPo baggage.

    Huh, I'd say it's a design flaw in our resource system if something that fixes us was totally outside that system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  8. #2128
    I think that LoD is mechanically better than any similar cooldown aoe heals like WG or CoH. You cast WG every 10s and cant do anything about this as a druid.
    We, on the other hand, have a lot of options: we may cast two LoDs in quick succession, we may cast more LoDs if we stack haste, we may cast more LoDs with t75 talents, we may cast even more LoDs if we cast some HRs, we may cast a powerful (or rather "powerful") single target heal instead of LoD.

    But the numbers on LoD and WoG are very low, and we cast LoD every 15s on the average. It's a 6k heal every 15s. These numbers kill all the fun mechanics.

  9. #2129
    Quote Originally Posted by btard View Post
    I think that LoD is mechanically better than any similar cooldown aoe heals like WG or CoH. You cast WG every 10s and cant do anything about this as a druid.
    We, on the other hand, have a lot of options: we may cast two LoDs in quick succession, we may cast more LoDs if we stack haste, we may cast more LoDs with t75 talents, we may cast even more LoDs if we cast some HRs, we may cast a powerful (or rather "powerful") single target heal instead of LoD.

    But the numbers on LoD and WoG are very low, and we cast LoD every 15s on the average. It's a 6k heal every 15s. These numbers kill all the fun mechanics.
    LoD is gated by our HoPo generation though, or lack of it as far as WoD is turning out to be. If we were able to do a finisher every 8-10 seconds instead of every 15 then we'd be in better shape. And of course if it was back to instant cast that would help tremendously.

    To always be able to use it we have to bank HoPo though and only use at 5 unless we needed to "double tap" so to speak. Getting the generation for that is quite annoying since if we assume the 1st HS is a 0, then the 5th HS is going to be 25-30 seconds in. Can we even work okay if it takes that long to do a finisher and then keep one kind of in the back pocket? I really don't think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  10. #2130
    This is better than resto druid's case. If your raid is hit every 30s, you lose 66% of your WGs. We will simply cast LoDs with 5hp. In some extreme cases we may dump an extra hp throug WoG if we know that there will be no aoe during the next 15 seconds. LoD, however, has two problems that make it hard to balance.

    First, t75 and 4pc greatly increase the amount of LoDs we cast. 6k is probably a solid number for a spell that you cast every other time with DP and 4pc. Second, LoD is coupled with our mana regen mechanics. Increasing LoD spd ratios would mean that we get more mana (in form of free LoD heals) through general rotation and through t75 and 4pc. Again 6k looks like a reasonable value for a free heal that is our form of mana regen (like mana tea, priest t45, omen of clarity or shaman crits). As you see blizzard can't simply increase LoD ratios to 12k-18k (to be in line with CoH and WG) without changing a lot of other stuff.

  11. #2131
    Quote Originally Posted by btard View Post
    This is better than resto druid's case. If your raid is hit every 30s, you lose 66% of your WGs. We will simply cast LoDs with 5hp. In some extreme cases we may dump an extra hp throug WoG if we know that there will be no aoe during the next 15 seconds. LoD, however, has two problems that make it hard to balance.

    First, t75 and 4pc greatly increase the amount of LoDs we cast. 6k is probably a solid number for a spell that you cast every other time with DP and 4pc. Second, LoD is coupled with our mana regen mechanics. Increasing LoD spd ratios would mean that we get more mana (in form of free LoD heals) through general rotation and through t75 and 4pc. Again 6k looks like a reasonable value for a free heal that is our form of mana regen (like mana tea, priest t45, omen of clarity or shaman crits). As you see blizzard can't simply increase LoD ratios to 12k-18k (to be in line with CoH and WG) without changing a lot of other stuff.
    I don't agree at all. None is going to have 4piece t17 for quite a while into WoD and I consider Divine Purpose+ 4P T17 the source of the problem and not the solution anyway.

  12. #2132
    The Patient Leefa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by btard View Post
    This is better than resto druid's case. If your raid is hit every 30s, you lose 66% of your WGs.
    Yes, as we all know AoE damage never hits more than every 30 sec and between that only tanks and 1 raid member takes damage. /facepalm bro
    Also, no t17 4p untill foundry is out anyway.
    Tank dies = Maybe healer's fault
    Healer dies = Tank's fault
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  13. #2133
    Let's take a scenario where our tank needs a lot of healing and we do not have Hand of Sacrifice or Lay on Hands. On live, this is what we would do: Holy shock > 2x FoL and finish it off with instant Eternal Flame/Word of Glory for a nice burst of healing, or we could just skip Holy Shock and cast FoL 3 times. Now, let's jump into WoD: Holy Shock > Eternal Flame(just 1 Holy Power, it heals for the same, but has short duration) > FoL > FoL > FoL > FoL > Holy Shock > refresh Eternal Flame. That seems like the best tank-healing combination and the throughput is so fucking low I am beyond disappointed. But now, let's add some Blizzard philosophy in there and cut our healing cooldowns, so we have even less throughput when we actually need it.

    To wrap it up, Holy Shock is really useless in terms of healing, but it's our only single target HP generator, and then we have 3 direct casting heals that all heal with the power of a wet noodle. We either need serious tuning or something instant in there, I am okay with standing and being a healing turret, but at least give us that burst we once had...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackielope View Post
    LoD is gated by our HoPo generation though, or lack of it as far as WoD is turning out to be. If we were able to do a finisher every 8-10 seconds instead of every 15 then we'd be in better shape. And of course if it was back to instant cast that would help tremendously.

    To always be able to use it we have to bank HoPo though and only use at 5 unless we needed to "double tap" so to speak. Getting the generation for that is quite annoying since if we assume the 1st HS is a 0, then the 5th HS is going to be 25-30 seconds in. Can we even work okay if it takes that long to do a finisher and then keep one kind of in the back pocket? I really don't think so.
    I am not even mad about the slow HP generation, I am mad at how weak LoD actually is.

  14. #2134
    Quote Originally Posted by Aladya View Post
    I don't agree at all. None is going to have 4piece t17 for quite a while into WoD and I consider Divine Purpose+ 4P T17 the source of the problem and not the solution anyway.
    That's also my point. I am just saying that if you fix it for highmaul, it will break in foundry and we will spam 15k LoDs.
    Let's compare short-cd aoe healing spells:
    LoD 0 mana, 5.6*6 = 33.6 healing, ~15s cd for effective rotation
    WG 12k mana, 17*6 = 102k healing, 10s cd, 8.5hpm
    CoH 5.7k mana, 12*5 = 60k healing, ~8.5s cd, 10.5hpm, instant
    Rain 6.9k mana, 10*6 = 60k healing, 10s cd, 8.7hpm
    Uplift 0 mana, 10*6 = 60k healing, 16s cd for effective rotation

    So far the priest one is the best. Paladin and monk may cast these spells more often.
    I guess LoD should heal for at least 10k because other similar spells heal for 10k.

    If we assume 9hpm for LoD then current version saves us 3700 mana per LoD or 15k per minute. 30-50% more if we take t75 into account.
    10k LoD would give us 6700 mana worth of healing, or 27k per minute (for 4 LoD per minute)

    Druid gets ~2.5 OOC procs per minute or 14.75k mana worth of free regrowths
    Priest gets 19,2k mana from solace or 13.2k from mindbender
    Shaman that casts 20 HW per minute gets 6.7k from resurgence at 25% crit chance. Slightly more if you add some chain heals
    Monks get some insane numbers since they have both free uplifts and mana tea. 25k worth free uplifts and 14k from mana tea, 39k total. Well it doesn't matter since monks suck anyway.

    I could made a mistake somewhere but the results seem consistent.

    Based on that I think they should increase LoD to 10k, increase HS and HR mana cost by 1k to reduce our mana-efficiency back to 15k/minute (or even more since t75 increases our mana regen) and remake 2/4pc ofc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leefa View Post
    Yes, as we all know AoE damage never hits more than every 30 sec and between that only tanks and 1 raid member takes damage. /facepalm bro
    Also, no t17 4p untill foundry is out anyway.
    You cast WG. You wait 10s. If 17 bars are full you just wait untill some raid damage happens. You cast less than 6 WGs per minute.
    With holy power you have some flexibility.
    Last edited by btard; Today at 12:21 AM.

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