[Protection] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[celinamuna]

Who stances dances anyway?

FTFY
10char

[Toore]

Doesnt blight need to be glyphed to stun the adds in transition? Still loosing glyph slot...

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Who keybinds stances anyway? Put a !cast macro on that bind in a hidden action bar if need be.

And there was me thinking they wanted to remove button bloat ^.^

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Doesnt blight need to be glyphed to stun the adds in transition? Still loosing glyph slot...

Yes, it does. You can't disorientate them.

[nightfalls]

FTFY
10char

Still need a bind for your primary stance, MC can take you out of it. Ask our tank who got (raid fucked up) MC'ed while testing Grand Empress on beta, next pull he was 1 shot, turns out he was in Unholy Presence.

[Deleted]

There is because PraisetheSun wrote an essay over multiple posts and missed it :P

I missed nothing. If your strat in 10-man requires you to engage all five groups at the same time (at least in these gear levels), rather than doing a 3 - 2 split, then you're doing it horribly wrong. There's never a need to take the major glyph. It's a terrible choice and I would never, ever recommend it - especially considering that you can solo-interrupt 2 entire cast waves without even taking it if you BLight the first one, then FoJ, AS, Rebuke the next wave.

All I'm trying to say here is git good and don't take a shitty glyph. If we could make it work in 570 iLvl, when you still had to run through Terrace and Temple was stupidly tight, without it (and we had legit the worst possible comp in the world for that fight, it was hilarious), then any other guild can do the same by just turning off their suck buttons for a while.

And srsly stop having tanks solo packs. It's a bad idea. Trust me.

[Deleted]

blinding light cost a glyph, holy wrath cost a glyph. You loose both cases. And like I told you getting the focussed wrath glyph isnt a dps increase on fight(or so minor it doesnt matter). Even if you did the adds, its not a big difference. But being able to bring 2 stuns instead of 1 helps.

You generally need 2 stuns / interupts on each set of adds to kill. Unless you get 5 people killing or they have really good cleave. You say step it up with interupts, you are aware you can single target interupt excactly 1 time during the entire transition right? you will reach above 25 energy else. So that means you gotta find those stuns somewhere. And if group doesnt have those stuns, getting more people on 1 group because tank can solo makes up for the stun. Can also have the tank being on 2 groups, with dps'ers backing up up for that kill, but doesnt change the fact you get 2 stuns with holy wrath glyph and 1 stun with blinding.

And no1 at current ilvl does terrace.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

If you're at the point where the dps increase from Focused Wrath (it only affects dps on the boss for about 20 seconds total in Phase 1 and about 2 seconds in P3, and the boss dps in P1 is totally irrelevant in the whole scheme of things) is make or break, you're better off taking the HW stun glyph and telling your dps to stop sucking for the rest of the fight.

Well over 90% of the fight is single target. Probably closer to 95%. Focused Wrath will make bugger all difference.

[Deleted]

First of all, not having the minor glyph affects DPS significantly more than you think - it's not like I haven't tested this shit in over 600 pulls across both raid sizes. I've run the fight with every single theoretically viable glyph combination possible, and the major glyph is simply more potential trouble than it's worth. It's not that I'm arguing that it doesn't do a good job of stunning the adds in the first intermission, but in my experience it simply causes completely unnecessary wipes too often for me to ever want to take it. And it is still my adamant opinion that regardless of your raid composition, Temple is doable and ought to be done without the Holy Wrath glyph.

Now, as to why the minor glyph affects DPS more than you think - when you're soaking Annihilates, and generally taking high debuff stacks, the MCs tend to go out when you're at peak vengeance. Not having the minor glyph means that HWs that could be hitting for upwards of 3 mil in the execute phase are instead splitting and completely overkilling MCs that will either (in 10-man) be broken out by your AS bouncing, or by the rest of the raid cleaving for like 1 GCD max (in 25-man). Whenever I don't run the minor glyph I lose anywhere between 10 and 15 million boss damage over the course of the fight; boss damage that can easily be make-or-break, especially so in 10-man. It actually seems to cost even more boss damage than not running Focused Shield, although I have no real explanation as to why this seems to be the case.

Now, really, lets just stop this discussion, because clearly y'all are set in your ways and I'm set in mine, and at this point we're just polluting the WoD thread with banter more suited to the prot guide thread.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Of course, I think all of us in this discussion are at the point where we are farming heroic garrosh regardless of our strategy, so by and large it is a bit pointless

[Reghame]

Hey all! can anyone confirm that holy wrath is bugged on the beta? the cooldown has been increased, but the damage is the same as it was a build ago, which is half of the tooltip. Even with this in mind though, with the new sanc wrath talent. Holy wrath was a very significant amount of damage. once it gets fixed though, whats are your thoughts of a true prot paladin dps build? going Emp seals juggling truth and righteousness with immediate truth, focused shield, and final wrath glyphs. even with the bugged holy wrath, it seems only slightly behind ret in damage. Can anyone else test this to see if im not just a tard or something? or can prot now have 2 focuses?

[Kaeth]

Assuming you're not fighting a really slow-hitting enemy (Timeless Isle snakes come to mind), which would actually result in greater prot dps: Emp Seals rotating Truth/Righteousness, or mastery stacking with Holy Shield? I'd seriously hope it's the latter, because Emp Seals is already so strong for solo survivability...

[Reghame]

Well if your tanking a lot of mobs, holy shield will definitely be stronger, but single target fights holy shield sucks, and then if your gona actually go FULL dps and not tank, only as a back up, you gain no damage from holy shield. so Emp Seals seems like the over all better talent. even more so with mastery stacking cause thats a LOT of bonus AP.

On top of this, im wondering how much prot will actually do when they fix holy wrath. With it doing half the intended damage and STILL being #3 on damage usually, i cant wait for it to hit harder than FV and hammer of wrath combined when your specced ret. ( ive gotten 50k tooltip damage on holy wrath with just this starting gear and procs up. never gotten to execute range on it but i suspect it might hit slightly less than an arms warriors execute. Which hits for a FREAKEN LOT!)

[Reghame]

i gave up hopes about prot pala tbh, survival is jackshit, we take shitloads of more damage compared to other tanks, we do so shit damage compared to other tanks

(lol was testing aoe dps with fragnance & viklund, viklund was doing 53k stable dps as warrior, me and frag was around 42k , with me slightly ahead , this, on 5 targets)

single target, i was doing 16k, viklund at 19k and fragnance around 22k (afaik) this was before the last update, so might change. but yeah, gave up hopes.

holy shield is shit, dont bother.

We take a lot more per swing due to the fact that they balance around our block ( which is not that good ) and our heals ( also not that good unless speced Emp Seals, which wont help you in a raid scenario where a boss kills you in 2-3 swings, just like every expansion)

They need to realize that prot's healing should not really be a focal point on their survivability because it cannot be balanced. it never has been. It needs to be focused around our blocking like it once was, and buffed accordingly.

lets also not forget that holy shield is a talent that increases block by a VERY small amount......... and does small damage to begin with but is 100% rng because of this new avoidance table.

i kinda find it weird that a spec that is based around shielding and guarding his fellow allies ( paladins ) blocks less often AND for less than the guy who is a juggernaut who likes to take the damage for his allies to smash his opponents ( warriors )

You would think that paladins would be the superior block tank, but they arent. And on top of this, they dont even heal for the most OR take the least amount of basic damage.

What is the role of prot paladins exactly? cause i dont see anything spectacular here :/

[celinamuna]

Prot paladins will get carried by tier bonus atm.
With 2k mastery (i thinks) we have 50% block, every time we AS we get another 50% --> just got ctc capped purely on block --> take 40% less dmg from all magic shit toon (gg nuke protection) with 4p procing we either go to 60% dmg reduction (still not to bad) or 90% (lolokblizzard)

After this we can start stacking haste or crit, and we already have 33%+ uptime on a mini cd, that works in addition to our HoP generators.
GGWP

(That being said, my guardian is getting beefier and beefier by minute)

[Deja Thoris]

i gave up hopes about prot pala tbh, survival is jackshit, we take shitloads of more damage compared to other tanks, we do so shit damage compared to other tanks

Isn't that the point of beta? So you can see this and give them feedback so they can fix it? The more objective and helpful the feedback is the better the chance of them listening.

[Reghame]

WTB fix to holy wrath, pretty sure if it gets fixed a full dps prot build might be 100% equal to ret at this point. give them the ability to use a 2 hander and a shield and id so go prot full time to dps/tank when i please

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Prot paladins will get carried by tier bonus atm.
With 2k mastery (i thinks) we have 50% block, every time we AS we get another 50% --> just got ctc capped purely on block --> take 40% less dmg from all magic shit toon (gg nuke protection) with 4p procing we either go to 60% dmg reduction (still not to bad) or 90% (lolokblizzard)

After this we can start stacking haste or crit, and we already have 33%+ uptime on a mini cd, that works in addition to our HoP generators.
GGWP

(That being said, my guardian is getting beefier and beefier by minute)

BTW, i thought you needed 104% block in order to block every attack? or is that a very old model they got rid of ( the old CTC dodge parry miss block compilation tank style, i know they dont stack but im pretty sure you still need 104% to be 100% safe vs a boss).

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im also pretty sure the spell block and magic DR are on seperate tables, so it would be -50% from DP(random number 100)= 50, then -40% from spell block = 30

And the physical part! for maths obviously
100x.6=40,40x1=40,40x.6=24,100-24=76
You gain a total of 76% DR with 60% armor, you use unglyphed DP, and block.

So you would net gain 70% DR if you spell block and have DP up. Still very strong and all but if we could achieve 100% blocking, any spell or magic AOE boss means prot paladins are 100% the go to choice, because they will be able to keep themselves alive 50% of the fight.

( MOAR MATH CAUSE DP GLYPH IS ALMOST ALWAYS USED! and i doubt a lei shi encounter will be coming in the near future so physical DR is always nice!)

100x.7=70,70x.6=42, 100-42=58
You gain a net total of 58% magical DR when DP glyph+ spell block is applied
100x.4=40, 40x.8=32, 32x.6=19.2,100-19.2=80.8
You gain a net total of 80.8% physical DR with 60% armor, glyph of DP, and you block.

With the glyph, you obviously lose some magic DR, and a slight boost to physical DR.

MORE MATHS!

Physical comparison glyph vs non 80.8 vs 76= 4.8% bonus DR vs physical with glyph
Magical comparison glyph vs non 70-58=12% bonus DR vs magic without glyph

HOWEVER! close to 70% if not more of a bosses damage on average over all of SoO as an example is physical, so you get this value!

4.8% times .7 = 3.36% over all physical reduction on a boss who does 70% physical and 30% magic
12% times .3 = 3.6% over all magic reduction on a boss who does 70% physical and 30% magic

The unglyphed DP wins overall assuming the following napkin math is right and assuming a boss is 70-30 physical magical, only losing once the boss hits around a 82-18 physical to magic ratio if im correct.


TLDR: unglyphed DP seems to win in a majority of scenarios if im right and assuming 100% block chance is in fact a thing

[celinamuna]

BTW, i thought you needed 104% block in order to block every attack? or is that a very old model they got rid of ( the old CTC dodge parry miss block compilation tank style, i know they dont stack but im pretty sure you still need 104% to be 100% safe vs a boss).

im also pretty sure the spell block and magic DR are on seperate tables, so it would be -50% from DP(random number 100)= 50, then -40% from spell block = 30

Talking bout 4p lad :P

[Reghame]

Talking bout 4p lad :P

i know, it gives 50% chance to block, but would that not stack on any current block? meaning that in order to be able to block EVERY possible attack, we would need 104% or some such?

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aka 54% block chance BEFORE the 4 set is applied

[celinamuna]

i know, it gives 50% chance to block, but would that not stack on any current block? meaning that in order to be able to block EVERY possible attack, we would need 104% or some such?

aka 54% block chance BEFORE the 4 set is applied

You're thinking 2p : Item - Paladin T17 Protection 2P Bonus: When you use Avenger's Shield, your block chance is increased by 50% for 5 sec.

4p is : Item - Paladin T17 Protection 4P Bonus: When you block an attack, you have a chance to gain the Defender of the Light effect.Defender of the Light increases your shield block value by 50% for 8 sec.(Approximately 2.20 procs per minute)

Not sure if 50% of current or absolute.
And 54% block chance isn't that hard to get, i think you need ~2k mastery.

Also for max dmg, you can troll with
Item - Paladin T17 Retribution 2P Bonus: Spending Holy Power has a 30% chance to allow the use of Hammer of Wrath regardless of your target's current health
(not sure if you can benefit from it as prot)

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Erm guys? Shield BLock Value is the amount of damage reduced by a block. 50% more SBV means you block for 60% instead of 40%. It does fuck all to your block CHANCE.