[Retribution] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[Darkchickens]

...That's...that's a lot of changes. It'll feel like playing a whole new toon again I imagine.

To me at least, its more or less the same, just with a lot more procs and a slower GCD.

[Solsacra]

I've some new results to show, and a tentative BiS set tailored towards our highest effective DPS setup DP+FV. Note: This particular gearset should yield the highest possible (or atleast close to) results for the Final Verdict talent, other setups will be more effective for Seraphim, so what you are seeing is not seraphim's maximum potential.

I also have some serious concerns with our long term scaling and where we stand in relation to everyone else. Some issues have been mentioned before, others like what i'm about to show we're the result of the removal of a few bugs from SimC code, which resulted in a much higher than usual execution rate of HoW, and some incorrect scaling rates on some stats/enchants. This also, does warrant another look at EmpS current tuning, as of right now i've been able to come up with a few conditions that allow for EmpS seal twisting to have very slight ~2-3% dps gains over sitting in truth, with tier bonuses. Once i feel comfortable that these results are accurate i'll show those aswell.

Single Target: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...7MST.html?dl=0
ST w/ intermittent movement, frequent add spawns, downtime, etc: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...MHAC.html?dl=0

tuning progresses as we approach launch, it's starting to become apparent that we are currently undertuned for most single target applications and below middle for AoE, we also don't actually have any meaningful two target cleave still, something i brought up just before alpha ended, nothing has been addressed. The FV cleave to Empowered divine Storm is the worst change we've seen since beta has begun, a lot of people have clamored for it's implementation. its a numbers nightmare. Blizzard doesn't often get things right on the first go (and who can blame them, development is a tough job, no sarcasm) but Final Verdict Cleaving was it. it would've solved so many of our AoE/Cleaving gameplay issues. DS could still be buffed for the other specs without inherently making FV cleave stronger. Achieving a better overall balance for our talent's, instead of leaving FV in the dust for sustained AoE and not insanely buffing it for cleave when the necessity for Seraphim/EmpS DS usage becomes sorely needed.

Give yourselves a pat on the back for this one if you pushed for EDS, you've hurt us more than you can imagine.

As for ST buffs, not much has changed. All i can see them doing is bringing back SoL to 30%, this is of course to say everyone else is where the benchmark is, and not where we are, so the point could be meaningless. Mastery is where it probably needs to be for FV, but underwhelming for Seraphim and Empowered Seals. Like my above point, so long as we have EDS we wont see much change in this department without, once again, breaking FV's scaling for the sake of the other two options.

Anyway, that gearset:


Head:Helmet of Guiding Light
Neck:Thogar's Serrated Chain+Enchant Neck - Gift of Mastery
Shoulder:Pauldrons of Guiding Light
Cloak:Cloak of Sanguine Terror+Enchant Cloak - Gift of Mastery
Chest:Battleplate of Guiding Light
Belt:Uktar's Belt of Chiming Rings
Legs:Legplates of Guiding Light
Feet:Sabatons of Fractal Earth
Wrist:Bracers of Visceral Force
Hands:Gauntlets of Guiding Light
Ring 1:Seal of the Savage Howl+Enchant Ring - Gift of Mastery
Ring 2:Spellbound Runic Band of Elemental Power+Enchant Ring - Gift of Mastery
Trinket 1:Horn of Screaming Spirits
Trinket 2:Vial of Convulsive Shadows
Weapon:Thogar's Control Rod+Enchant Weapon - Mark of Bleeding Hollow (Note: Since this enchant has yet to appear for testing, there is a chance that it may not make it to live servers. In which case we would resort to Enchant Weapon - Mark of the Frostwolf)

[ruiizu]

I've some new results to show, and a tentative BiS set tailored towards our highest effective DPS setup DP+FV. Note: This particular gearset should yield the highest possible (or atleast close to) results for the Final Verdict talent, other setups will be more effective for Seraphim, so what you are seeing is not seraphim's maximum potential.

I also have some serious concerns with our long term scaling and where we stand in relation to everyone else. Some issues have been mentioned before, others like what i'm about to show we're the result of the removal of a few bugs from SimC code, which resulted in a much higher than usual execution rate of HoW, and some incorrect scaling rates on some stats/enchants. This also, does warrant another look at EmpS current tuning, as of right now i've been able to come up with a few conditions that allow for EmpS seal twisting to have very slight ~2-3% dps gains over sitting in truth, with tier bonuses. Once i feel comfortable that these results are accurate i'll show those aswell.

Single Target: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...7MST.html?dl=0
ST w/ intermittent movement, frequent add spawns, downtime, etc: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...MHAC.html?dl=0

tuning progresses as we approach launch, it's starting to become apparent that we are currently undertuned for most single target applications and below middle for AoE, we also don't actually have any meaningful two target cleave still, something i brought up just before alpha ended, nothing has been addressed. The FV cleave to Empowered divine Storm is the worst change we've seen since beta has begun, a lot of people have clamored for it's implementation. its a numbers nightmare. Blizzard doesn't often get things right on the first go (and who can blame them, development is a tough job, no sarcasm) but Final Verdict Cleaving was it. it would've solved so many of our AoE/Cleaving gameplay issues. DS could still be buffed for the other specs without inherently making FV cleave stronger. Achieving a better overall balance for our talent's, instead of leaving FV in the dust for sustained AoE and not insanely buffing it for cleave when the necessity for Seraphim/EmpS DS usage becomes sorely needed.

Give yourselves a pat on the back for this one if you pushed for EDS, you've hurt us more than you can imagine.

As for ST buffs, not much has changed. All i can see them doing is bringing back SoL to 30%, this is of course to say everyone else is where the benchmark is, and not where we are, so the point could be meaningless. Mastery is where it probably needs to be for FV, but underwhelming for Seraphim and Empowered Seals. Like my above point, so long as we have EDS we wont see much change in this department without, once again, breaking FV's scaling for the sake of the other two options.

Anyway, that gearset:


Head:Helmet of Guiding Light
Neck:Thogar's Serrated Chain+Enchant Neck - Gift of Mastery
Shoulder:Pauldrons of Guiding Light
Cloak:Cloak of Sanguine Terror+Enchant Cloak - Gift of Mastery
Chest:Battleplate of Guiding Light
Belt:Uktar's Belt of Chiming Rings
Legs:Legplates of Guiding Light
Feet:Sabatons of Fractal Earth
Wrist:Bracers of Visceral Force
Hands:Gauntlets of Guiding Light
Ring 1:Seal of the Savage Howl+Enchant Ring - Gift of Mastery
Ring 2:Spellbound Runic Band of Elemental Power+Enchant Ring - Gift of Mastery
Trinket 1:Horn of Screaming Spirits
Trinket 2:Vial of Convulsive Shadows
Weapon:Thogar's Control Rod+Enchant Weapon - Mark of Bleeding Hollow (Note: Since this enchant has yet to appear for testing, there is a chance that it may not make it to live servers. In which case we would resort to Enchant Weapon - Mark of the Frostwolf)

The change needed is still something that makes procs increase in chance to proc after each failed proc. Meaning 25 -> 50 -> 75 -> 100% with each successive "failure." There's nothing wrong with proc gameplay, you just need anti-bad luck built into said system.

For record though, I felt like having Final Verdict interact with Seals would have been an awesome application. The cleave was a good idea, but they should have taken it further to make Seal of Insight do a 100% leech off Final Verdict hits, and made Seal of Justice convert the 10 yard range into a forward leap or something.

I don't agree that EmpDS is a bad thing by default, but the interaction Final Verdict has with DS makes it problematic for sure.

[Solsacra]

The change needed is still something that makes procs increase in chance to proc after each failed proc. Meaning 25 -> 50 -> 75 -> 100% with each successive "failure." There's nothing wrong with proc gameplay, you just need anti-bad luck built into said system.

I never said proc gameplay was bad.

What is bad is the inherent design and interaction of FV and DS. they've put themselves in a bad position for adjusting the two target cleaving capability of retribution as a whole (we have none). You cannot increase Divine Storm damage without making FV too powerful, as a result it needs to stay at a relative value for the three talents. This is why the EDS proc is useless outside of being specialized into FV. When everyone can produce meaningful gains from two target cleave and retribution cannot, with the importance of doing so on so many fights in T17, we're poised to be in a spot worse than where we were for T14. regardless of how strong our ST is. Thats a fact, and the numbers support it.

Yes, EDS could probably stay, but its interaction with FV needs to go entirely.

[ujx]

Instead of using 5pc, wouldn't Gauntlets of Dramatic Blows be our best offpiece?

[Solsacra]

Instead of using 5pc, wouldn't Gauntlets of Dramatic Blows be our best offpiece?

Nope, that would cause us to lose the 15% haste breakpoint, as minor as that is, it's still a ~0.5% dps increase to use the tier.

[Arrowset]

After a day spent pvping/dueling etc on various classes on beta, I can say without question that ret is the most fun dps spec on beta for me. It's not even that close- I'm glad inquisition is gone, and it seems like there's always some interesting proc to keep things interesting. It's on the strong side as well, without being blatantly overpowered like ferals are. Which is a good place to be.

My hunter has been flat out ruined, so he will be staying at 90 and my ret will be my pvp main for WoD.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Please don't tell me I'm the only one that's "upset" about that even in a Simulation the min/max dps difference on our ST simulation is ~12% each way (meaning the total difference is above 20%). That's a lot of room for rng to show and not skill... furthermore in AoE the problem is even bigger- from the absolute shit luck to the godly luck you can quadrupal your output! Sure it's fun sometimes and terrible other times and it'll "average" out to something "viable"... who cares about average? Every pull is a potential kill, you can't say "I'm godmode 20% of the add spawns and we'll overkill them easily- but 20% of the time we'll wipe because I can't pull my weight."
RELIABLE-RELIABLE-RELIABLE
that's all raiding is, put up numbers- repeat them/improve on them and kill bosses... Nobody gives two shits about that one pack that you blew up because RNG lined up- EVERYONE cares if you don't kill it and you fall behind.

Would it really be a disaster to get Consecration back and put a portion of our aoe damage into that and make Divine Storm procs and all the other BS make up less of our total? I just can't stand our current model of playing with 3 procs and/or set bonuses that control so much of our damage- I can't/won't play Fire Mage or Warriors for the same reason- being dependent on RNG for damage is SHIT imo.

- - - Updated - - -

After a day spent pvping/dueling etc on various classes on beta, I can say without question that ret is the most fun dps spec on beta for me. It's not even that close- I'm glad inquisition is gone, and it seems like there's always some interesting proc to keep things interesting. It's on the strong side as well, without being blatantly overpowered like ferals are. Which is a good place to be.

My hunter has been flat out ruined, so he will be staying at 90 and my ret will be my pvp main for WoD.

Fun =/= Viable

[Calgar2013]

Is the 15% Haste breakpoint really that important?

On beta with the 4 set and even without it, it's an epic clusterfuck of procs with EmpDS, DP and FreeHoW leading into Exo usage asap. Which leaves building HP a relatively non-issue. I personally didn't find myself, outside of RNG where something wasn't procced to use, worrying about a lack of buttons to press, which was the opposite of T14 and T15 where getting that 5HP ASAP using and building again was what we're all about.

You have dedicated so much time into this and my presumptions are probably worth fuck all to you, but I cant help but think going a mastery> crit would yield more eDPS purely based on the swamp of procs we'll be dealing with and those procs benefitting heavily from both of those secondaries, moreso than haste.

Just my .02

[ujx]

Would it really be a disaster to get Consecration back and put a portion of our aoe damage into that and make Divine Storm procs and all the other BS make up less of our total? I just can't stand our current model of playing with 3 procs and/or set bonuses that control so much of our damage- I can't/won't play Fire Mage or Warriors for the same reason- being dependent on RNG for damage is SHIT imo.

It would be nice. As of right now on beta, warlocks/monks/dk/feral/warriors/enh shaman, are flat out destroying anyone else on AoE. It's pretty ridiculous the disparity between the classes. Whats even more ridiculous is the fact that all of these classes don't have to modify their ST spec at all to pull crazy AoE dps. They also don't have to reforge (like us) to do this. Hell, warriors use Whirlwind for single target now and it is amazing for AoE also. Dk's whether unholy or frost, do incredible AoE. Etc..

All dps classes now should be equal with the gutting of utility. As it stands right now, why would you even bring a ret over a warrior or dk? Both do better ST and AoE, all while being consistent about it.

[Kelemar]

So after finally aquiring a beta key, I went and tested a few things today for myself. PvP with FV - it's FUUUN!!! Finally I can enjoy playing against other players again. We are viable, if not on the upper side of the spectrum, and you can finally do things again instead of just sitting in CC forever. Kudos to Blizzard!

Now lvl 100 talents:
Seraphim, without t17 4p, is a bit clunky to me. Give it 35sec CD and a 3HP cost. That would be nice. Otherwise I think it could be kind of fun based on the encounter with either more haste or the t17 4p, as already stated.

Screw EmpS, but that's already been said a hundred times. Just clunky and without addons barely trackable. Letting Judgment add 2 or 3 seconds to the remaining duration would be a good change, maybe.

Final Verdict - it's just plain awesome. It's what Templar's Verdict should've been like in MoP. The only thing that bugs me is the sound it makes, and apparently custom sounds are currently disabled on beta. So 'no' to my custom Cata TV sounds for FV at the moment.

But anyway, to fix our current problem with the swing in dps (especially AoE). Why not just buff DS to 100%, and remove the DS buff Final Verdict currently gives you? A few people have suggested this already. Just wanted to also support that idea.

[Doodledoo]

Just put FV back to the damn way it was originally designed.

[Arrowset]

I did a test with a dk to see if AMS absorbs final verdict- it does. FV was only hitting the dk for like 18k anyway, not exactly a hard-hitting ability. I'm not crazy about either Emp Seals or Seraphim, though so I guess I'll take FV. Don't expect to see it eating big chunks off of health bars though.

And remember it's magical damage which is both good and bad. Good because it bypasses armor. Bad because it's blocked by a DK's ams or a rogue's cloak.

[Rathimis]

Current simcraft single target delta is 15.75%.

Solscara's projected WoD BIS single target delta is 22.24%.

If anyone was looking for those actual variances

[Doodledoo]

I did a test with a dk to see if AMS absorbs final verdict- it does. FV was only hitting the dk for like 18k anyway, not exactly a hard-hitting ability. I'm not crazy about either Emp Seals or Seraphim, though so I guess I'll take FV. Don't expect to see it eating big chunks off of health bars though.

And remember it's magical damage which is both good and bad. Good because it bypasses armor. Bad because it's blocked by a DK's ams or a rogue's cloak.

Well thanks for that tidbit

[Solsacra]

Current simcraft single target delta is 15.75%.

Solscara's projected WoD BIS single target delta is 22.24%.

If anyone was looking for those actual variances

largely due to the difference in choice of secondary stat. The last gearset used haste, this new one favors a balanced setup of haste15%>mastery>crit/multistrike. You may find more consistant results with haste, but your mean will be lower than a mastery setup. Mastery is prone to wider range, thanks to RNG, but it also has a higher potential top end. Take note of the values in the histogram, the lower end value is quite close between the two, but the top end varies significantly.

[Rathimis]

largely due to the difference in choice of secondary stat. The last gearset used haste, this new one favors a balanced setup of haste15%>mastery>crit/multistrike. You may find more consistant results with haste, but your mean will be lower than a mastery setup. Mastery is prone to wider range, thanks to RNG, but it also has a higher potential top end. Take note of the values in the histogram, the floor value is quite close between the two, but the top end varies significantly.

15.75% variance from bottom to top is the Live simc model

Saw people going on about the DPS variance due to procs/RNG and wanted to see what the difference between live and beta was. The question is: is that extra 7% (ish) variance enough to be pissed about? The answer to that question will require a look at other classes single target delta ranges from Live to WoD. And since I have no particular definitive knowledge of the state of classes WoD simcrafts, its not a question I can even begin to answer

[MBDTF]

we have a haste breakpoint now ?

[Solsacra]

To me? no, not concerned at all. Someone ignorant of statistics might be. A variance of +50% might be cause for concern. fun fact, the DPS variance in cataclysm during T13 from best to worst was less than 35%. You know, when tentacle swords and Divine Purpose procs ruled our output, it was still, rather consistant in contrast to some of the other classes. We do not have anything to worry about, RNG is not our problem. at all. contradiction and flaws within current design are.

we have a haste breakpoint now ?

Not in the traditional sense. I know this sounds a little convoluted, for the most part its due to how many executions we can fit into any given window, short term buffs, cooldowns, whatever. The gain is small, when compared to another stat at the same rate, but enough to warrant shooting for it, as was in this case it was just over ~125 dps over the entire budget that we have to play with.

[MBDTF]

To me? no, not concerned at all. Someone ignorant of statistics might be. A variance of +50% might be cause for concern. fun fact, the DPS variance in cataclysm during T13 from best to worst was less than 35%. You know, when tentacle swords and Divine Purpose procs ruled our output, it was still, rather consistant in contrast to some of the other classes. We do not have anything to worry about, RNG is not our problem. at all. contradiction and flaws within current design are.



Not in the traditional sense. I know this sounds a little convoluted, for the most part its due to how many executions we can fit into any given window, short term buffs, cooldowns, whatever. The gain is small, when compared to another stat at the same rate, but enough to warrant shooting for it, as was in this case it was just over ~125 dps over the entire budget that we have to play with.

Just threw a tweet at celestalon on asking about current placement of ret in regards to our sim dps, inb4 he responds with your sims not being what Dev's sim and other dumb excuses.

In any case, so with these sims and how much of a boost actually reaching the cap provides, we'd always want a WF/socket/both piece over something that'd offer haste right? Or at how much crit/ms/mastery would be needed in comparison to outweigh the benefit of haste? I couldn't imagine very much.