Blizzard wants tank specs to be viable; massive mistake?

[Melubyou]

inb4 wod african turtle cleave

[gestapo]

N
Entirely false. Some tanks just want to be able to PvP and not have DPS heals outheal their damage. To want or expect to do the damage of a DPS is just ridiculous. I don't see anybody suggesting that.

Your statement here contradicts itself. I think what people are trying to say is that since a dps spec won't kill a healer 1v1, and tanks will or should be doing less damage than a dps spec, by extension the healer will out heal the tanks damage.

The problem that's been brought up many times in this thread already, that some fail to see, is that Blizzard is not capable of finely tuned pvp balance. They most likely will not be able to make tanks balanced in pvp. Tanks will either be over or underpowered and trying to make it work is a pipe dream and should just be abandoned. I have 3 tanks at max level, so I'd love to be able to be a tank in pvp, but outside of some RBG maps it's just not happening.

[Mindark]

Your statement here contradicts itself. I think what people are trying to say is that since a dps spec won't kill a healer 1v1, and tanks will or should be doing less damage than a dps spec, by extension the healer will out heal the tanks damage.

The problem that's been brought up many times in this thread already, that some fail to see, is that Blizzard is not capable of finely tuned pvp balance. They most likely will not be able to make tanks balanced in pvp. Tanks will either be over or underpowered and trying to make it work is a pipe dream and should just be abandoned. I have 3 tanks at max level, so I'd love to be able to be a tank in pvp, but outside of some RBG maps it's just not happening.

There was no contradiction. My statement was that tanks should be able to beat a DPS's healing, not a healer's healing.

[Deviant]

No, I was comparing that it may be impossible to kill a tank spec 1vs1, but it is also impossible to kill a healer spec 1vs1. If this is an excuse to not allow tanks because "only the tanks have fun", then it should be extended to healers, as well.

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Entirely false. Some tanks just want to be able to PvP and not have DPS heals outheal their damage. To want or expect to do the damage of a DPS is just ridiculous. I don't see anybody suggesting that.

You can kill a healer 1v1 in arena because of dampening. Mages, Rogues, Death knights and Warriors can kill healers 1v1. It just take a lot of timing.

[Ooshraxa]

They've mentioned several times that tanks would be doing 75% the damage of a capable DPS in PvE.
I wonder if it's the same number they're aiming for in arena.

[Reveries1]

Honestly a large amount of this thread is just QQ tanking doesn't belong in pvp, they will do to much damage and be OP or do to little and be crap still. Not sure why people don't toss around ideas on how to make them fun/viable and work instead.

Personally I think the trick is to give them the defensive taunt to take damage that someone is dealing for a period of time.

Outside of that they could balance them to be on Par with a DPS but adjust health pools and output. For example (just easy numbers)

DPS "A" has 500 health and does 100 damage a second.
Tank "B" has 1000 health and does 50 damage a second.

Then they ability to 1vs1 each other and the winner is based off the skill and play. To balance Tanks they will need something extra (Taunt changes) or be competitive with DPS without doing as much damage.

Try to think of ways to make people actually wonder if they would want a tank instead of a DPS instead of ways to make them not as bad as they are now or saying they will break things. There are ways to make them work and make PvP more enjoyable for everyone.

[Debased]

Yes. Tanks do not belong in instanced PVP. If you want a CC class roll one, there is plenty. There is nothing fun or fair about fighting someone with almost double your HP and unlimited CC and absorbs.

[Reveries1]

Yes. Tanks do not belong in instanced PVP. If you want a CC class roll one, there is plenty. There is nothing fun or fair about fighting someone with almost double your HP and unlimited CC and absorbs.

Why not fix the problems and increase the diversity of specs in pvp? More options leads to more play compositions for arena and group strategy's. I see zero down side to having tanks in pvp if they are adjusted and balanced correctly.

The increase to damage tank specs take directly effects the issues you listed about health and absorbs. as for your unlimited CC comment I don't understand as Tank specs have pretty much the same CC as their DPS counterparts.

[Gandrake]

I'd prefer they stay unviable unless tanks were changed drastically from their current implementation.

You know what people say when they see a tank (or a Warlock) running around with a million health? They say "Fuck that noise. Tanks are such braindead specs, there's no point in trying to kill them unless I have like 2 other reasonably well equipped players here or 1 other really great player."

They might not kill you, but you're probably not going to kill them unless they're as stupid as their class is designed.

But like I said, if these tanks resemble anything to their current implementation then it's just a bad idea. Do not want.

[Fugus]

I know this is partly off-topic but...

After reading part of that blue post from the OP. They really disappoint me more and more in this game with how they keep messing up with band aids instead of just fixing the problems.

Vengence, Resilience, PvP Power, Battle Fatigue, debuffs in BGs, none of these thing should have been created EVER.

General rule,
If the damage is too high in PvP, it is too high in PvE, adjust the PvE encounters accordingly.
If the healing is too high in PvP, it is too high in PvE, adjust the PvE encounters accordingly.
If the ability is too strong in PvP, it is too strong for PvE, adjust the PvE encounters accordingly.

If they had just made sure to follow that most of this crap could have been avoided. You wouldn't have tanks that required such insane levels of mitigation and avoidance as the bosses wouldn't have been putting them out, and if it wasn't for that, tanks would still be more than PvP viable in their select venue as they made excellent base defenders and flag runners but blizzard kept trying to shove everyone into the sandbox to get gear to PvP everywhere else and wouldn't need high DPS to become a threat in the arena settings. So long as 1v1 can have some level of actual balance and everyone can fill their nitches in the group settings, it shouldn't be too bad so long as they don't force you into it for the gear.

The big question, will they ever fix this crap or will they keep going the route they are going cause for every band aid they put on, it makes it that much more painful if they ever actually try to take them back off to do it right.

[Emophia]

Yeah it's dumb.

Watching some beta streams, it's silly how many tanks there are in 2's, and how long they take to kill and they do a decent amount of damage. It's fine for hybrid dps, but pures will probably be fucked against them.

[Ooshraxa]

Bear (hehe!) in mind that the "tanks will take 25% more damage in arena" was bugged on Beta - and was instead reducing the damage they took by 25%. Unkillable, indeed

[Gumboy]

Why not fix the problems and increase the diversity of specs in pvp? More options leads to more play compositions for arena and group strategy's. I see zero down side to having tanks in pvp if they are adjusted and balanced correctly.

The increase to damage tank specs take directly effects the issues you listed about health and absorbs. as for your unlimited CC comment I don't understand as Tank specs have pretty much the same CC as their DPS counterparts.

We don't need MORE diversity of specs in pvp. Its already impossible to balance how it is :P

[neflian]

they should make it so prot is made for rbgs not arena.

[marriorfan54]

PvP... Blizzard? ...lol

Those two words don't belong together anymore. Blizzard is nothing but a carebear company nowadays.

[Dottzx]

I think its a massive mistake. You shouldnt be able to run prot and stuff like that in arenas, as FC is fine, but they are "tanks". They should be able to survive well and not deal as much dmg, its a tradeoff

[Gumboy]

Prot warriors are literally the most scary dps class/spec on the beta at the moment. Even if they do not take Gladiator stance, as the warrior thread on AJ pointed out, they simply do more damage and cc then most other classes, while still being extremely hard to kill. Beta is beta yes, but frankly I do not see tanks in pvp EVER being properly balanced.

[Fugus]

Prot warriors are literally the most scary dps class/spec on the beta at the moment. Even if they do not take Gladiator stance, as the warrior thread on AJ pointed out, they simply do more damage and cc then most other classes, while still being extremely hard to kill. Beta is beta yes, but frankly I do not see tanks in pvp EVER being properly balanced.

I see it as possible, I just don't think blizzard has the balls to actually do it right.

In order to balance them, they have accept and respect the fact that they aren't going to be viable at everything and respect they have their nitch and shouldn't be forced to PvP in everything.

Tanks are great as base defenders and flag carriers. So allowing them shine in that regard without giving them debuffs to make them worse at it while trying to buff them even stronger outside of those jobs in places like arena would fix a lot of this. If you check, just a few posts above, I already said what would fix a lot of this.

For me, if they give you 70% resilience in PvP, all that means is they need to cut all DPS by 70% baseline and readjust PvE accordingly.
If they think they need to cut all healing by 30% in PvP, all that means is they need to cut all healing by 30% baseline and readjust PvE accordingly.
If they ability is so strong they disable it in PvP, all that means is they need to completely remove it from the game and readjust PvE accordingly.

The fact they refuse is why we keep ending up here.

[morislayer]

Question: Is gladiator stance switchable in bg's / rbg? As in, start off a bg (Arathi for arguments sake) as dps, kill, get base. Then switch to protection tank. I would hope you are locked into a role / stance once the bg begins.

It would be analogous to old school feral swapping gear after a battle to tank the node and switching to bear form.

[Fugus]

Question: Is gladiator stance switchable in bg's / rbg? As in, start off a bg (Arathi for arguments sake) as dps, kill, get base. Then switch to protection tank. I would hope you are locked into a role / stance once the bg begins.

It would be analogous to old school feral swapping gear after a battle to tank the node and switching to bear form.

I haven't heard of any limitation in that. From what I have heard, it is supposed to be instant change with only the combat limitation while using the exact same gear and PvE viable DPS.

If it makes it out of beta at all, that will be a massive failure on blizzards part, it should be its own spec, not just a stance. If it does make it out of beta, you can expect massive complaints from all the players who don't keep track of the changes and see that travesty hit live, especially the old school ferals who are still playing. If it goes live as is, it will make it massively OP.