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  1. #121
    Tanks will never be balanced in PvP as long as they operate as tanks. They will either be useless or overpowered.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Reveries1 View Post
    My point about Role is its effecting all specs that play that role.

    There are multiple ways they could go about incorporating tanks into pvp. They currently seem to be trying to make them be DPS with lower damage but higher survivability. Personally I am not a fan because they lose the tank feel. Another way like I mentioned at some point in this thread is to make changes to taunt to allow it be used against players (Targets damage dealt is directed to you for the next 6 seconds) type deal.
    Sure, they could. But why make it a focus of their work at this point in WoD's release? It feels like a nice to have thing vs an OMG we can't ship without this thing. People who play tanks now could PVP as DPS or heals and if they really want to pursue this, they could patch it in. Also, making taunts work isn't a good idea since 1) it's a CC and we have too many of these and 2) taunt is a silly mechanism anyway. It's needed in PVE where they have the trinity idea so deeply ingrained but forcing a player to lose their intelligence and attack a player who's not the main threat is just... off.
    Last edited by clevin; 2014-07-17 at 11:04 PM.

  3. #123
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Tanks in PvP seems like a huge mistake to me - it really adds very little to the game, and messes up the meta a lot. Plus, all previous times tanks have been viable in PvP - it's been OP as sin.

    It's clearly hard enough for them to balance DPS across their sustain, burst, CC, mobility, anti-CC, and survivability - and balance healers across their instant burst, mana regen, sustained healing, CC, anti-CC, mobility, and survivability. Why add back a whole new archetype of mess - when they can't even handle DPS+Healer balance as is?

    They're biting off more than they can chew.
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  4. #124
    The Patient
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    Just a tougth, how would it work if you let the tanks with a hight survability and low dmg but he would give a buff to allies that stay near, like x% mor dmg done. less dmg etc, this only for pvp ofc??
    “Dois loucos não sabiam que era impossível realizar a tarefa, decidiram então realizá-la.” Mark Twain

  5. #125
    I think that tank classes in PvP should act in a debuff/cc/fc/flag defender role. Possibly a lower priority target than healers and (real) dps for players that want to a support/non-squishy role.
    How they would fit in arena environment? No idea :P

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by NPEC View Post
    Just a tougth, how would it work if you let the tanks with a hight survability and low dmg but he would give a buff to allies that stay near, like x% mor dmg done. less dmg etc, this only for pvp ofc??
    Like Yvaelle and others have said, I believe it will be too challenging for Blizzard to balance having tanks in pvp. They haven't proven that they can even balance non-tank (dps/heal) roles properly in previous expansions, let alone pvp in general. From past experience we have seen that giving tanks more cc/survivability has been a failed experiment and an exercise in frustration.

    I sort of liked the idea of giving tanks some sort of redirect mechanic, maybe a short duration buff used on an ally where 20% of the damage over the next X seconds is directed to the tank. Overall tanks would need to have a permanent healing debuff or something to compensate. But as you can see, this would mean added complexity, something that I can assume Blizzard is not willing to undertake. It's easier to just leave tanks out of pvp.

  7. #127
    I don't think it's a mistake

  8. #128
    I think that if they decrease damage reduction, in order to increase damage output, that would be very interesting. I am very interested in 'Gladiator Stance' for Warriors in example. I for one, am extremely excited for tanks re-introduction into PvP.

    Edit: To further talk about this topic, I forgot to mention I had a pretty good idea on this matter. What if they gave 'Taunt' abilities that all tanks have, useable on players, now listen for a second before freaking out. What if, perhaps, someone taunts an enemy player, say damage is then increased by that enemy player on the tank target only. Or another idea, which I think is better, would be a tank will 'Taunt' an enemy player, and for say, 5 seconds, the taunted player can only damage the tank. This would be a very interesting way to crowd control and peel DPS off healers or DPS.
    Last edited by Krieger; 2014-07-18 at 08:38 PM. Reason: AN IDEA APPEARED

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Tanks in PvP seems like a huge mistake to me - it really adds very little to the game, and messes up the meta a lot. Plus, all previous times tanks have been viable in PvP - it's been OP as sin.

    It's clearly hard enough for them to balance DPS across their sustain, burst, CC, mobility, anti-CC, and survivability - and balance healers across their instant burst, mana regen, sustained healing, CC, anti-CC, mobility, and survivability. Why add back a whole new archetype of mess - when they can't even handle DPS+Healer balance as is?

    They're biting off more than they can chew.
    You may be right. I think a lot of the balance issues in pvp are from Blizzard trying to retain the feel of each class. Its difficult to say balance is bad when its intentionally unbalanced. Classes having hard counters makes things a lot more interesting. I am not saying things are balanced. If adding tanks to pvp would cause issues with Blizzard balancing specs and classes then I would be against it but I can not see their processes and I don't know how blizzard feels about over all class balance currently.

    What if blizzard is not changing things because they believe they are in a good spot? Its not the first time players did not play to their full potential.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Krieger View Post

    Edit: To further talk about this topic, I forgot to mention I had a pretty good idea on this matter. What if they gave 'Taunt' abilities that all tanks have, useable on players, now listen for a second before freaking out. What if, perhaps, someone taunts an enemy player, say damage is then increased by that enemy player on the tank target only. Or another idea, which I think is better, would be a tank will 'Taunt' an enemy player, and for say, 5 seconds, the taunted player can only damage the tank. This would be a very interesting way to crowd control and peel DPS off healers or DPS.
    This isn't a new idea. Unfortunately this acts as a 'cc' of sorts and blizzard is attempting to reduce cc, not bring more into the game, so I don't see this happening. At least the redirect-DR type idea has some potential, but overall still too hard to balance.

  11. #131
    LMAO "viable". There is always going to be trade offs with the claim that ether tanks are OP or UP due to x or y situation. Just another thing Blizzard is going to set up expectations for players to pressure them on just like going back to tune old content for soloists despite an already large imbalance in class/spec soloing ability.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Aqueous View Post
    Tanks will never be balanced in PvP as long as they operate as tanks. They will either be useless or overpowered.
    I didn't mind the prot paladins during wotlk. I enjoyed playing vs them.

  13. #133
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reveries1 View Post
    What if blizzard is not changing things because they believe they are in a good spot? Its not the first time players did not play to their full potential.
    I'm not sure I'm interpreting your post right (the first sentence is confusing)? But, I wouldn't say that developers are the most capable of determining the potential of even their own games - the top players are routinely (in my experience) better than the developers, and more knowledgeable about how the game actually plays out: that's why good developers seek top end player feedback, and take it to heart. I beat one of the Quake 3 devs at LAN (and it wasn't even close). I used to play with one of the Half-Life engine designers in early counter-strike - and nobody had initially predicted how complex the strategies and tactics in CS would evolve back then - that was the players driving the evolution of the gameplay (which now we would call both, "clever use of game mechanics" - permissible exploits, and the 'meta' of strategy and team composition).

    The devs who made Starcraft could probably beat the bots on the hardest difficulty - but they would get slaughtered if they ever tried to compete competitively. It's true for every genre and company - Ghostcrawler didn't direct World of Warcraft to make himself the best player on Earth - but out of the woodwork came Talbadar (or Reckful, or whoever you want to name) - and I'm sure you could throw just about any Rank 1 player 3's team against the 3 best Blizzard employees: and it would be a slaughter (ie. I'm not even sure if Holinka was ever R1? So it's not just the top players - it's many percent of the top players).

    Realistically, devs who play their own games enthusiastically are probably in the 90th percentile typically of their playerbase - but that still means that 10% of their playerbase knows more about what the full potential of a class than the devs themselves understand. Devs professionally think about their games - that's their day job, and they put in the hours - but despite their effort - it's a mistake to think they inherently and fully understand how their game is played.
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2014-07-21 at 12:44 PM.
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  14. #134
    Tanks in PvP are fine, if you can't kill them you just need to learn to play a bit better.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Unfortunately, Glad Stance is still instant cast. Drop combat (not hard in a RBG) and switch specs. They'd need to at least add the standard spec change cast time to going in and out of Glad Stance.
    just like spec change they can turn that off within pvp zones which i assume they will tbh. You go in as glad ? you're stuck as glad till it's over..

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