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  1. #181
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Nothing I want or can't get for a lot cheaper myself.. and a lot of it wasted.
    Good luck getting every road you've ever used for cheaper as an individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    If they are taxes that's used for a good cause I'll gladly pay them. Unfortunately, in many cases politicians want higher taxes so they can throw more money at problems when there's just straight-out structural problems that should be dealt with in the first place. Sweden's education ranks at almost the same level as Russia's, yet we're in the top when it comes to spending on education. Now the leftists wants to raise taxes even further even though there obviously is a problem with the education system that goes beyond monetary.

    Then there's also the bad ways that taxes are brought in with. Sweden used to have an inheritance tax for example which I find redundant and frankly, offensive. If my grandpa died, who have served Sweden all his life, before the inheritance tax was abolished then a bunch of his wealth would go to the state, even though he might've wished his wealth would go to his family. A big "fuck you", essentially.
    That's a different problem though, which is simply wasteful and inefficient spending. Taxes are necessary and useful. The simple fact that they go up should not in and of itself be a cause for outrage now or at any point in time in the future. It should always be a matter of exactly why they're going up and whether or not we could be making better use of them.

  2. #182
    Which means the taxpayers are paying for it one way or another so no thanks.
    No shit you're paying for it one way or the other. Its healthcare. There is no getting out of paying it, no matter how you set it up.

    Nothing I want or can't get for a lot cheaper myself.. and a lot of it wasted.
    Gonna go down to the roads store any buy some roads, maybe pick up some police officers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  3. #183
    Epic! Fyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    So you have no idea what taxes are for. Great.


    If you spend 10% of each paycheck on food, do you think of it as working for free 10% of the time or, when the money actually enters and leaves your hands, is it easier for you to understand that necessary expenditure isn't the same as not getting paid at all?
    Well it sort of is.. ok, you get something for it but most of it is wasted on things I personally couldn't care less about.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Well it sort of is.. ok, you get something for it but most of it is wasted on things I personally couldn't care less about.
    Roads, a functioning administration, law enforcement, etc all seem like pretty great things I both want and wouldn't want to fund on an individual basis.

  5. #185
    Epic! Fyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    No shit you're paying for it one way or the other. Its healthcare. There is no getting out of paying it.
    Well Im not paying it now.. must be magic?

    Gonna go down to the roads store any buy some roads, maybe pick up some police officers.
    Of course you point out one of the few things we actually do get from taxes. What about foreign aid, political campaigns, wars on "terror" and stuff like that?

  6. #186
    Well Im not paying it now.. must be magic?
    Yes you are. You think it has no effect on you when the economy is weighed down by an overly expensive system that is not available to enough people.


    What about foreign aid
    An nearly nonexistent portion of federal spending.

    political campaigns
    Where are taxes going to campaigns?
    wars on "terror"
    yeah that sucks, better support politicians who want to end it. This is not an argument against taxation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  7. #187
    Titan Nixx's Avatar
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    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258

    It's the first link from Google. The pie chart looks to be accurate. I didn't read the rest of it.


    This is how your federal tax dollars get spent.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    That's a different problem though, which is simply wasteful and inefficient spending. Taxes are necessary and useful. The simple fact that they go up should not in and of itself be a cause for outrage now or at any point in time in the future. It should always be a matter of exactly why they're going up and whether or not we could be making better use of them.
    Yeah, I'm not against taxes, but again, I think many people take the Nordic countries for granted by using our high taxes to demonstrate how it could work out in the US if you adopted our welfare system. I think too high taxes make politicians too (for a lack of a better word) liberal with spending.
    I'm a European federalist. Now you know.


  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Yes you are. You think it has no effect on you when the economy is weighed down by an overly expensive system that is not available to enough people.
    Still want it to fail and go away, sorry.. Im stubborn

    An nearly nonexistent portion of federal spending.
    A portion Id rather keep, even I could only buy a cone of ice cream a month with it. (It's probably a lot larger though)

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Still want it to fail and go away, sorry.. Im stubborn
    You're against NHS for no reason?
    I'm a European federalist. Now you know.


  11. #191
    The Lightbringer Revi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Well Im not paying it now.. must be magic?



    Of course you point out one of the few things we actually do get from taxes. What about foreign aid, political campaigns, wars on "terror" and stuff like that?
    What about infrastructure, safety services, social security, research, your damn internet cables, public parks and cultural facilities, outdoor lighting, public schools, water/sewage/drainage, and the million and one other things that you need a government backed by taxes to accomplish?

    Paying taxes might feel bad, but it's absolutely vital to the living standards developed countries currently enjoy.

  12. #192
    Epic! Fyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    You're against NHS for no reason?
    Ok if you keep pushing it, I think social security, healthcare etc. should all be opt out systems. If it's so good and beneficial, why isn't it that way? You have to pay them regardless. Why is that?

    It's that way because people who benefit less from it would opt out and would buy their own which would mean that all the poor people would be left out in the rain. And I don't much care for poor people so the less of these safety nets, the better.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    A portion Id rather keep, even I could only buy a cone of ice cream a month with it. (It's probably a lot larger though)
    Your share amounts to maybe a couple hundredths of a penny.

    Still want it to fail and go away, sorry.. Im stubborn
    Then you are wrong.

    Ok if you keep pushing it, I think social security, healthcare etc. should all be opt out systems. If it's so good and beneficial, why isn't it that way? You have to pay them regardless. Why is that?
    How do you think insurance works when only the people who need health care pay for it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Ok if you keep pushing it, I think social security, healthcare etc. should all be opt out systems. If it's so good and beneficial, why isn't it that way? You have to pay them regardless. Why is that?

    It's that way because people who benefit less from it would opt out and would buy their own which would mean that all the poor people would be left out in the rain. And I don't much care for poor people so the less of these safety nets, the better.
    How do you benefit "less" from having a safety net? Even Bill Gates could get his health care treatment for free if he wanted to, so that all those hundreds of thousands could go to his charity fund instead of hospital profits.
    I'm a European federalist. Now you know.


  15. #195
    The Lightbringer Revi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Ok if you keep pushing it, I think social security, healthcare etc. should all be opt out systems. If it's so good and beneficial, why isn't it that way? You have to pay them regardless. Why is that?

    It's that way because people who benefit less from it would opt out and would buy their own which would mean that all the poor people would be left out in the rain. And I don't much care for poor people so the less of these safety nets, the better.
    Because idiots would opt out, then get sick/unemployed with nowhere to turn, and we would end up with an increase in the spread of diseases, homelessness, crime, suicide and despair among a large part of the population. A healthy/safe public is very beneficial to all members of society.

    If allowing opt-outs we'd also be faced with a horrible moral dilemma of having to either let people die on the steps of our hospitals if they've opted out and can't afford treatment, or the contributors would have to pay for leeches, giving even more incentive to opt-out, and we'd be back to either making it mandatory or letting people die on the steps of our hospitals.
    Last edited by Revi; 2014-07-05 at 07:53 PM.

  16. #196
    Epic! Fyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    What about infrastructure, safety services, social security, research, your damn internet cables, public parks and cultural facilities, outdoor lighting, public schools, water/sewage/drainage, and the million and one other things that you need a government backed by taxes to accomplish?

    Paying taxes might feel bad, but it's absolutely vital to the living standards developed countries currently enjoy.
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that. What's with you all pointing out the useful stuff but leave out where the bulk of the taxes goes? The things you listed are only like 25% tops, where does the rest of the money go to?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    How do you benefit "less" from having a safety net? Even Bill Gates could get his health care treatment for free if he wanted to, so that all those hundreds of thousands could go to his charity fund instead of hospital profits.
    Just because Gates is a charitable person doesn't mean everyone else is or has to be I think Gates just lacks vision and has too much money, I admire people like Elon Musk a lot more and I've never heard of him giving money to poor people.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that. What's with you all pointing out the useful stuff but leave out where the bulk of the taxes goes? The things you listed are only like 25% tops, where does the rest of the money go to?
    25%?

    Government Pensions $1.2 trillion
    Government Health Care + $1.3 trillion
    Government Education + $1.0 trillion
    National Defense + $0.8 trillion
    Government Welfare + $0.5 trillion
    All Other Spending + $1.5 trillion
    Total Government Spending $6.3 trillion

    Curtesy of http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/breakdown

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    Thank you for this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  19. #199
    Epic! Fyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    BIf allowing opt-outs we'd also be faced with a horrible moral dilemma of having to either let people die on the steps of our hospitals if they've opted out and can't afford treatment, or the contributors would have to pay for leeches, giving even more incentive to opt-out, and we'd be back to either making it mandatory or letting people die on the steps of our hospitals.
    Why not give them aid but put them in dept if they don't have insurance? We wouldn't have to let them die but it doesn't mean it has to be free either.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Thank you for this.
    Let me dumb it down for you, I have wireless.. and it's provided by a private company, not by the state so none of my tax money goes towards it or even towards the infrastructure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Revi View Post
    Government Pensions $1.2 trillion - don't wanna pay for this
    Government Health Care + $1.3 trillion - not needed (people should just keep buying insurance if they want it)
    Government Education + $1.0 trillion - needs more funding
    National Defense + $0.8 trillion - no comments
    Government Welfare + $0.5 trillion -don't need this
    All Other Spending + $1.5 trillion - probably a lot of useless stuff here too
    Total Government Spending $6.3 trillion

    So whats left? Roughly 25%

  20. #200
    The Lightbringer Revi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Why not give them aid but put them in dept if they don't have insurance? We wouldn't have to let them die but it doesn't mean it has to be free either.
    And if they couldn't afford it?

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