Sniper Training - A Flawed Concept and How to Improve It

[Arcanimus]

It flat out needs to be removed... Replaced by something like (Mastery: Bola Shot, #% chance on attack to trigger Bola Shot. Inflicting fire DoT.)

So... you want the old mastery back and you want it to be worse?

[Deleted]

I used to like the concept of it (and I still do), but now I realize how gimmicky and demanding that mastery is compared to all other masteries in the game, whatever the situation is.
At this point (and given how much movement will be required in the next raid tier), they'd rather put Sniper Training as a MM-only talent and give us a more simple and reliable mastery like armor penetration, since MM is about physical spells (and who cares if it's weak; mastery is not supposed to be MM's best stat anyway).
Plus ST would synergize really well with Focusing Shot.

[Meleehunter]

So... you want the old mastery back and you want it to be worse?

Yes i would rather the old mastery over Sniper Training... You obviously don't play competitive PvP.
Let me explain something for you! MM Hunter is all about Movement in PvP... Standing still is fucking suicide...

[Deleted]

Yes i would rather the old mastery over Sniper Training... You obviously don't play competitive PvP.
Let me explain something for you! MM Hunter is all about Movement in PvP... Standing still is fucking suicide...

I've played competitive PvP when aspect of the Fox was still a thing, and that was a MUCH MUCH bigger impact on your DPS than the new mastery

[Illana]

I've played competitive PvP when aspect of the Fox was still a thing, and that was a MUCH MUCH bigger impact on your DPS than the new mastery

not even close, you could switch to fox to move for cobra/steady and back to hawk for instants

[Deleted]

For what I remember, Aspects where on the global cooldown at least from S9 onwards to cata patch 5.0.5(mop prepatch). You couldn't macro them to abilities like you did during MoP 5.0

[Illana]

For what I remember, Aspects where on the global cooldown at least from S9 onwards to cata patch 5.0.5(mop prepatch). You couldn't macro them to abilities like you did during MoP 5.0

yup and that was reverted very hastily

for the majority of cata they had no global cooldown though.

[Tyderi]

I've pointed this out before, but a simple fix would be to halve the activation time if you stop while the ticking buff is still active. I do feel like being able to build up a longer stretch of the ticking buff would be beneficial as well. I can only hope they decide to tune the baseline high (10%) and then make the mastery scaling bad so it doesn't get too high.

[Deleted]

It is fine. Stop assuming you should have 100% uptime on your mastery, the Mastery is very strong because it is not faceroll to maintain. If it raises the skillcap for the ridiculously fotm hunter playerbase - good, if as a result those guys reroll something else - good, most importantly if the mastery is rewarding enough to limit mobility - brilliant. Hunter has been watered down and made so accessible that the difference between a good player and bad one is pretty minimal, there are 2 other specs to play you know. I for one have always preferred MM and this mastery is welcomed as is the stand still to cast filler, the excuse from blizzard was our mobility was superior so our dmg had to take a nerf. Now we can make that trade-off win-win.

[Arcanimus]

It is fine. Stop assuming you should have 100% uptime on your mastery, the Mastery is very strong because it is not faceroll to maintain. If it raises the skillcap for the ridiculously fotm hunter playerbase - good, if as a result those guys reroll something else - good, most importantly if the mastery is rewarding enough to limit mobility - brilliant. Hunter has been watered down and made so accessible that the difference between a good player and bad one is pretty minimal, there are 2 other specs to play you know. I for one have always preferred MM and this mastery is welcomed as is the stand still to cast filler, the excuse from blizzard was our mobility was superior so our dmg had to take a nerf. Now we can make that trade-off win-win.

The problem isnt uptime. It's that the stat becomes a nil value outside the buff. Resto Druids gain a benefit to direct heals even when their "maintenance" buff is down. Resto Shamans get a reduced healing bonus from higher health targets. Arcane Mages get a reduced bonus from lower percentages of mana. The only legitimate nil-value situations are Blood DKs, Prot Warriors, and Guardians on a Magical damage encounter, and thats only if the encounter has no physical components (aka chain casting spells and no melee swings). Such a situation does not yet exist, and I highly doubt that it will ever.
The argument that downtime equates to nil value is flawed at best. If you're not doing anything, it doesn't matter how much stats you have: everything has a nil value when you stand there with a thumb in your bum. With this change, in addition to the removal of Arcane Shot as a lower-cost focus dump, MM has basically become a physical damage Elemental Shaman with none of the utility or defensive capability, and with even less damage output.

[Deleted]

Yes I totally see your concern regarding the wasted potential of the mastery but I still like it. The idea of planning ahead and acting accordingly (provided the Mastery is a substantial increase to your dps) is in my eyes wonderful! The whole reward for higher skill is what I thoroughly enjoy as a dps - Something Hunter lacks sorely.

Is this encounter movement heavy, so much so you don't think you could maintain Sniper Training for 90% (or whatever uptime required to be onpar/better than other specs) of the fight? Is it the first time you have done this encounter and are not sure how to time your movement window? That's fine, roll SV or BM.

Is this encounter movement heavy, but you are confident you can keep Sniper Training up by anticipating and timing your movement accordingly? Yes! Gz go own the meters! Maybe go with a Mastery heavy build then, i like it even more.

[Arcanimus]

Yes I totally see your concern regarding the wasted potential of the mastery but I still like it. The idea of planning ahead and acting accordingly (provided the Mastery is a substantial increase to your dps) is in my eyes wonderful! The whole reward for higher skill is what I thoroughly enjoy as a dps - Something Hunter lacks sorely.

Is this encounter movement heavy, so much so you don't think you could maintain Sniper Training for 90% (or whatever uptime required to be onpar/better than other specs) of the fight? Is it the first time you have done this encounter and are not sure how to time your movement window? That's fine, roll SV or BM.

Is this encounter movement heavy, but you are confident you can keep Sniper Training up by anticipating and timing your movement accordingly? Yes! Gz go own the meters! Maybe go with a Mastery heavy build then, i like it even more.

At no point in this thread was the discussion about PvE. It's been about PvP from the beginning, barring the small asides referencing other classes' masteries.

PvP is where stopping is taboo, and is where Marksman will almost never get a moment's respite to apply the buff.

[DeicideUH]

At no point in this thread was the discussion about PvE. It's been about PvP from the beginning, barring the small asides referencing other classes' masteries.

PvP is where stopping is taboo, and is where Marksman will almost never get a moment's respite to apply the buff.

^ This!

It's there in the OP: problem is PvP, not PvE. Hunters have zero defensive abilities that do not require them to move. The uptime of Mastery will be very low in BGs (once someone notices the hunter and starts attacking back, Mastery is gone). In Arenas, with all the pillar hugging, it will be even worse.

Giving the Mastery some use "on the move" wouldn't have a big effect on PvE (you'll still need to stop and get the buff for full DPS), but would do wonders for the spec on PvP.

Right now, a MM Hunter in PvP has two choices: avoid Mastery like the plague, or re-spec.

[Deleted]

I really dont understand what all the fuss is about. One stat for one spec will be weak in pvp.. so what? There's other stats and other specs , not every possible combo has to work perfectly.

[Libertarian]

I really dont understand what all the fuss is about. One stat for one spec will be weak in pvp.. so what? There's other stats and other specs , not every possible combo has to work perfectly.

Because it's not just "weak", it makes it completely worthless. No other class in the game has a binary stat where it is either good or completely useless.

[DeicideUH]

Because it's not just "weak", it makes it completely worthless. No other class in the game has a binary stat where it is either good or completely useless.

It's a funny thing, because I bet that it was the mastery of their spec, the same people who do not care right now would be crying out.

It also opens a precedent, which is dangerous. Watch more specs getting binary stats in the future, and then someone pointing out "MM Mastery is already like that, so it's fine".

[Illana]

don't want this to die, stuff like this needs to be changed and I'm glad i pushed for no GCD on aspects before mop and i certainly don't want this to go through either.

Having a mastery that has 0 passive benefit will mean it will be the rock bottom stat for any class.

[Mormolyce]

If you hate it so much play a different spec in PVP.

I don't know why people want to PVP in MM anyway.

Because it's not just "weak", it makes it completely worthless. No other class in the game has a binary stat where it is either good or completely useless.

It is not worthless. You're assuming you're moving every single second? By that logic every caster in the game should do 0 damage in PVP.

Ridiculous hyperbole.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a funny thing, because I bet that it was the mastery of their spec, the same people who do not care right now would be crying out.

I PVPed for years as a sub rogue. My mastery buffed SnD. Cry me a river.

[Illana]

If you hate it so much play a different spec in PVP.

I don't know why people want to PVP in MM anyway.



It is not worthless. You're assuming you're moving every single second? By that logic every caster in the game should do 0 damage in PVP.

Ridiculous hyperbole.

- - - Updated - - -



I PVPed for years as a sub rogue. My mastery buffed SnD. Cry me a river.

It's not just going to affect pvp, in pve you have to value mastery on how much uptime you will have of it. If the uptime changes per fight enough so that sometimes mastery is not worth it then nobody will gear for mastery because it's too much of a pain to keep 2 sets of gear (not to mention you're required to have 2x the loot as anyone else) to switch between.

By your logic no caster has any instant spells.

Your mastery buffs evisc and rupture too (crimson tempest as well but nobody really cares about that), SnD is an integral part of sub pvp. Seems like you "tried" to pvp on your rogue but never actually got round to actually doing it.

[Arcanimus]

I don't know why people want to PVP in MM anyway.

Because it's almost always been the favored PvP spec? Outside the mongoloids running BM at 1400 rating, that is.

I PVPed for years as a sub rogue. My mastery buffed SnD. Cry me a river.

You also had Prep and Shadowstep as Sub, making it the favored pvp spec because of its rediculous mobility and versatility, basically negating any shortcomings, and giving you a full set of extra outs when you needed them. Not to mention that as stated, your mastery also effected your damaging finishers.