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  1. #21
    Another thought would be having external movement not start the timer. So things like disengage wouldn't disrupt the timer, nor would knockbacks like thunderstorm.

    Could also have time get banked while standing still instead of a fixed 6 second timer. Stand still for 10 seconds, have a 16 second movement window. Encourages player to stand still whenever possible but comes with less risk of downtime (and therefore a 0% benefit from mastery.)

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    A spec must be viable for PvP. There's a thin area between "the best" and "horrible" where MM can be.

    But the problems is not how good a spec is for something. It's about designing a feature that essentially negates a stat under certain circunstances. Imagine if rogues could only crit while stealthed, for instance. The point is that Mastery rating must always have value, even if it's not the best stat.
    Not all specs need to be viable for everything. You have 3 specs. You can have 2 of them on you. Use more than one spec. And no "But I wannnnnnaaaaa" is not a valid argument.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    A spec must be viable for PvP.
    Explain why every spec in the game must be viable for PvP.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Not all specs need to be viable for everything. You have 3 specs. You can have 2 of them on you. Use more than one spec. And no "But I wannnnnnaaaaa" is not a valid argument.
    The idea that "this spec is for PvP, that is for PvE" died a looooong time ago. And yes, all specs should be viable. One will always be better, of course, and one will always be the worse. But thinking we need to accept bad design when it can easily be fixed baffles me.

    "Oh, you want your favorite spec to be viable, even if it's not the best? No, can't have it, pal. You now must play this other spec that doesn't have an appeal to you. Have fun."

    I won't ever understand that mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlaena View Post
    Explain why every spec in the game must be viable for PvP.
    Because every spec has its fans. Everyone wants to have fun doing what they like.

    And besides, if it was YOUR favorite spec, you'd be crying rivers, I'm sure.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    The idea that "this spec is for PvP, that is for PvE" died a looooong time ago. And yes, all specs should be viable. One will always be better, of course, and one will always be the worse. But thinking we need to accept bad design when it can easily be fixed baffles me.

    "Oh, you want your favorite spec to be viable, even if it's not the best? No, can't have it, pal. You now must play this other spec that doesn't have an appeal to you. Have fun."

    I won't ever understand that mentality.
    That's your problem. But then PVPers whine and bitch more than any other subset of players in the game. Loosing 4% won't gimp you in PVP and if you're talking about ranking you'll man the fuck up and play whatever spec is best. Since you're insisting on playing MM regardless, you're not serious. And for not-serious PVP MM will be fine. It will be perfectly viable. You just want to bitch and moan and redefine viable to be the same as best. Guess what? Viable doesn't mean best. It means workable. Acceptable. Decent. And in that world, MM will be viable.

    As for not understanding my mentality - don't worry, I don't get yours. You have 3 specs and refuse to use 2 of them?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Loosing 4% won't gimp you in PVP
    It's not about the 4%. It's about all the Mastery in my gear that goes to waste and I can't convert to Crit, Haste, Versatility or Multistrike because the other stats at least have some value attached to it when I need to move.

  7. #27
    suck it up and stop crying over it. When blizzard decided to fuck up destro in cata i tried the other specs, realised they werent for me and discovered i liked protection paladin instead.

    Also, how can you be so sure that it will suck? toning down movement a lot wont just affect pve it will affect pvp a lot aswell. Sure, it will be harder to use against melee, hardly a problem against the other casters with now far more limited on the move/instant spells.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by srathgar View Post
    Also, how can you be so sure that it will suck? toning down movement a lot wont just affect pve it will affect pvp a lot aswell. Sure, it will be harder to use against melee, hardly a problem against the other casters with now far more limited on the move/instant spells.
    Other casters don't lose the value on their gear when they need to move to defend themselves.

    Your target decided to hug a pillar? That warrior is cleaving off your arms? Bye bye Mastery.

    A mage can freeze you, Blink away and keep attacking without losing their access to, say, Crit or Haste.

    (But the worst part of answering all these posts is to notice that no one actually read the OP and didn't get the point of the topic).

  9. #29
    If we dont agree it means we did not get the point of it?
    Then this is no longer a discussion but merely you trying to convince us that this sucks, and that the world is ending.
    If that is the case then nothing constructive will come out of it, and if you actually want to make more people aware of this, take it to the blizzard forums where they might just listen instead of here.

    Also, off my mind you retain a lot of movement yes? If that is still correct, and i believe it was the last time i checked, then you got dmg on the move. warlocks loose a lot of their dmg on the move, while you loose 4%?

    - - - Updated - - -

    we could actually look at it in a different way. as a warlock, i loose the talent to allow me to cast incinerate on the move and get a cd instead. Sure there are some up and downs with it but if you look at it completely un biased, my mastery/crit/haste/versatility/multistrike is useless when im moving. Yet you whine about mastery when you stil retain the rest of them.

    Still not sure why you are trying so hard to make this sniper training you guys get to look so bad. Got ups, got downs. As do other classes that loose so much movement.
    And any movement while loosing mastery owns movement with rain of fire, or nothing (play a warlock so examples ofcourse come from there).

    If i am wrong on the hunter movement, then enlighten me. if not, then as i said above, you whine about loosing mastery. I will whine about loosing all my stats on the move as a hard counter to the silly willy argument bout mastery ^^

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by srathgar View Post
    If we dont agree it means we did not get the point of it?
    I know when someone doesn't get the point because instead of throwing answers to my arguments, they post something that essentially boils down to "suck it".

    Because really, no one is even attempting to criticize the three solutions I pointed in the OP. And most answers being posted seem to think that I for some reason am trying to get rid of Sniper Training.

    Also, off my mind you retain a lot of movement yes? If that is still correct, and i believe it was the last time i checked, then you got dmg on the move. warlocks loose a lot of their dmg on the move, while you loose 4%?
    See? You didn't even read the post. It is not about losing 4%. It's not about being able to use Sniper Training in PvP.

    It's about Mastery having some value when I need to move.

    You didn't even try to read the three possible solutions I posted.

  11. #31
    Childish responses from casters who are butthurt about their ability to cast while moving are not relevant to this thread, really.

    In response to the OP, I'm hoping that the duration of the buff is tuned to be longer to at least make it a little more forgiving.

    Overall, I think this concept is amazing and assuming we can reach the same percentages of mastery as we can now (I'm talking 550 PVP gear, ~40% mastery or so), that's potentially an extra 40% range on shots, going from 40 yards to 56 yards? Yes please.

    Obviously it depends on how it scales and I'm sure there will be a cap on it to prevent it being completely ridiculous. I don't see it being completely unviable in PVP either though; it really depends on how the cc breakers / root breakers / melee mobility in general is reined in to balance the relative reduction in CC.

    Ironically given the general reduction of burst, it seems that MM is being designed as an even more bursty spec: This new mastery, potential 4 set bonuses to add even more crit damage and rapid fire careful aim could potentially see MM really dishing out the pain.

    Imagine something like... Freezing trap into 3 second standstill for the mastery buff, into powershot with glyph of no escape (guaranteed crit), into rapid fire aimed shot (guaranteed crit) followed by chim. Pretty damn bursty.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by srathgar View Post
    we could actually look at it in a different way. as a warlock, i loose the talent to allow me to cast incinerate on the move and get a cd instead. Sure there are some up and downs with it but if you look at it completely un biased, my mastery/crit/haste/versatility/multistrike is useless when im moving. Yet you whine about mastery when you stil retain the rest of them.
    No, they are not. What you are saying is completely false. You still have powers that you can cast while you move, and your demon can attack while you are moving. They are not the most powerful of your abilities, but they do benefit from all your stats.

    Also, as a Warlock, you have 2 options of instant movement. Using them diminishes the time you spend on the move while not making a whole stat useless for quite possibly the rest of the fight.

    Also, Warlocks have a lot of defenses, from Self-Heals to defensive CDs to instant movement to strong CC. Hunter defenses are based on moving, and that in itself makes poor synergy with Sniper Defense.

    [quoteStill not sure why you are trying so hard to make this sniper training you guys get to look so bad. Got ups, got downs. As do other classes that loose so much movement.[/quote]

    Another proof you didn't really read the OP. I'm not trying to make Sniper Training bad. It's awesome for PvE Group content. Absolutely awesome. My complain is that it is poorly thought-out for other content, specially PvP. In the same thread I suggest 3 solutions, 2 of them makes no impact whatsoever in raiding or other PvE group content.

    And any movement while loosing mastery owns movement with rain of fire, or nothing (play a warlock so examples ofcourse come from there).
    Not quite familiar with Warlocks beyond Destro, but Destro has (or at least had, not following their changes in WoD so far) instant cast attacks and pet. And as far as I know, other specs have instant DoTs. You are not optimal when moving, yes, but you are viable, as I've found fighting Warlocks with my Paladin and my Hunter.

    (Specially funny when they fear my hunter, heal themselves, then blast me with Chaos Bolts while I'm still running away, without any need of moving away from their spot).

    If i am wrong on the hunter movement, then enlighten me. if not, then as i said above, you whine about loosing mastery. I will whine about loosing all my stats on the move as a hard counter to the silly willy argument bout mastery ^^
    You don't lose your stats when moving. You just can't use your strongest attacks. And besides, your class is not built around moving all the time. Mine is.

  13. #33
    just been on the beta to see how much a lvl 100 has with the mastery from the gear they get.
    it's ~7% (4% baseline, ~3% from mastery).

    thought i'd just leave this info for the discussions sake

  14. #34
    You realize the entire point of this is not to be a buff for you to maintain, it's to counterbalance being able to 'cast' everything on the move.

    If you want to change or remove Sniper Training, be ready to give up your unlimited mobility.

  15. #35
    its funny, i read the ideas and found them utterly uninteresting.
    Also, as i said i cant see your problem. EVERY class EXCEPT hunters have been made less mobile. Seeing as i played a destruction warlock, i just cannot see the big problem with standing still for 3 seconds, thats the story of any destruction warlock. Chaos bolts now to a less extent than soul fire back in cata.
    Again, if i move, i effectively loose all of my stats as i cannot do anything except rain of fire on the move (they removed, for god knows why, fel fire and our incinerate on the move talent (reworked into a cooldown)).
    If you feel sad that you have to stand still to utilise it, sure, be sad. ill cry as i got 0 instants except for conflagrate every now and then, and that they are also the only things i can do on the move now along with rain of fire.

    guess what i read when i read your "solutions" are just the "i want the whole cake just like i used to in mop!!!". aka we got our wings clipped, lost movement all over. you retain it, you just loose out in the dmg while moving.

    Oh, my solution, just to make you happy:
    your tldr:
    TLDR: Sniper Training is a very cool ability, but it must not invalidate all Mastery stat in your gear when you are forced to move. In its current iteration, Sniper Training is a flawed idea that's awesome for PvE group content, but incredibly gimped for anything else.

    Thats okay, lets allow you to keep the old mastery. Instead you just loose a flat % dmg all the time while moving. happy? no, guess not
    With mastery, you can atleast try to find gear without mastery on it. And then, when you find teams that cant make you move all the time, HAPPY TIME! mastery on all the time.

    All in all what do YOU suggest we do to punish your mobility? If this isnt to your liking, then come up with suggestions to gimp your movement as i see this as blizzards way to not make you hunters being beasts on any movement fights in that particular spec.

  16. #36
    Depends how they tune the rest of MM's damage. If it's more of a buff that you can get occasionally, rather than having it most of the time and feeling nerfed without it.
    One cannot simply quit wow his way into Mordor.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by salvadorbard View Post
    Childish responses from casters who are butthurt about their ability to cast while moving are not relevant to this thread, really.
    I think you nailed it.

    In response to the OP, I'm hoping that the duration of the buff is tuned to be longer to at least make it a little more forgiving.
    This could also make Sniper Training better, indeed, and could be a fourth solution, thought I think (IMO) it would defeat the spirit of Sniper Training.

    Overall, I think this concept is amazing and assuming we can reach the same percentages of mastery as we can now (I'm talking 550 PVP gear, ~40% mastery or so), that's potentially an extra 40% range on shots, going from 40 yards to 56 yards? Yes please.
    I don't think the new Mastery will have such high percentages. Probably it will be around 20% at the highest tier, I believe.

    Obviously it depends on how it scales and I'm sure there will be a cap on it to prevent it being completely ridiculous. I don't see it being completely unviable in PVP either though; it really depends on how the cc breakers / root breakers / melee mobility in general is reined in to balance the relative reduction in CC.
    I dunno, currently a Hunter that does not move is a dead hunter, and they are not making any huge changes to our defenses in MoP. Once a melee gets close enough, we will be forced to move, and it will be hard to spare 3s to stay in one place unless we are CC'ed. My opinion, of course.

    Freezing trap into 3 second standstill for the mastery buff, into powershot with glyph of no escape (guaranteed crit), into rapid fire aimed shot (guaranteed crit) followed by chim. Pretty damn bursty.
    If you start the fight far enough from the target, it could be pulled off indeed.

  18. #38
    darn, netherspark beat me to it.

    Also, im not sure you want them to start hurting your mobility instead of doing it in an interesting way like this.

  19. #39
    Brewmaster Bassch's Avatar
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    As you said in the OP, the spec mightn't be good in PVP. What harm? Play another spec. Many specs have different reasons to not be good in PVP, and the mastery issue you brought up is MM's reason.

  20. #40
    Ehm, not sure i am buthurt at all about the movement changes. Sure, its gonna take some getting used to, but i can live with it quite easily. i did so in vanilla, bc, wotlk and cata.
    The buthurt seems to come from the hunter that demands to be able to move as well as he did in mop when the rest of the casters gets an arrow to the knee and loose mobility.
    Also in regards to the warlock things. As of now, we can do as destruction, rain of fire (aoe, not good dmg at all, quite inferior) or conflagrate which is a part of our stand still rotation too. Now t his isnt to discuss warlocks, i like a lot of the s tuff they are doing to remove bloat personally. But you are trying to argue that the rest of the ranged need to loose mobility, but not hunters. Just doesnt work like that.

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