Poll: Is this considered piracy?

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  1. #1

    Old Emulators and Shows. Piracy or not?

    I've been thinking about this for awhile, namely because I use emulators for old games (e.g., ones that are no longer in circulation and being sold by game companies) and also use (free) streaming services for some shows that have been off the air in forever and the DVD sets aren't being sold by them anymore, yet when I point these out to people, I'm told it's "illegal", and I really don't understand why. I had a friend who worked at a Gamestop, and one day, I mentioned how I enjoyed playing Pokemon (referring to Gens 1-3) on my computer through an emulator, and he immediately told me to be quiet around the cameras, but GB/GBA games haven't been sold in (normal) stores for YEARS now.

    So I ask you, MMO-Champion community, is using old emulators/watching old shows for free really considered piracy? And do note, I'm only referring to emulating games you cannot buy in normal stores (e.g., NES-Gamecube era for the games)

    PS: The "Yes" answer is because I want to know exactly why someone believes it's considered stealing because I honestly don't understand and want to get why.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2014-07-06 at 09:40 AM.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  2. #2
    The way i see it, there's 0 chance of the original publishers getting money after many years, as every copy is pre-owned or was bought new and resold.
    so no, i don't see it as piracy.

  3. #3
    Of course not, like you said the original creators weren't going to make a profit off it anymore anyway. It makes no difference if you bought it online or at gamestop or something, if it's an old game the only person making money is the person currently selling it.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Hunterpower View Post
    The way i see it, there's 0 chance of the original publishers getting money after many years, as every copy is pre-owned or was bought new and resold.
    so no, i don't see it as piracy.
    That's exactly how I view it; I just want to know why anyone could think this is stealing. Hell, I got banned from a forum because someone asked how to play Pokemon on their computer and I linked to an emulator site and got banned for posting "illegal links".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rucati View Post
    Of course not, like you said the original creators weren't going to make a profit off it anymore anyway. It makes no difference if you bought it online or at gamestop or something, if it's an old game the only person making money is the person currently selling it.
    Yet people actually say it's stealing and I don't get it. Same with music; there are some songs I KNOW I can't buy, so if I really want it, I'll rip it from YouTube. If I know I can buy a DIGITAL soundtrack of it, I will.


    PS: I'd like to point out that yes, I do a lot of these sort of things, but I DON'T torrent new games and movies that come out. I'm well aware about actual piracy and I don't partake in that sort of thing. Hell, I barely know how torrenting works because I've done it twice in my life, both times to get non-illegal files.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  5. #5
    Technically, it IS piracy, but the odds of any of the developers or owners of the games/shows taking legal action or sending cease and desist letters is pretty low. I wouldn't talk about it around people like the ones in the OP though.

  6. #6
    Well, the whole copyright issue for non-material goods is just a virtual judical issue.

    It doesn't matter if you "think" or "feel" if it is piracy, there are laws that directly depict if it is piracy (in your country). Since most copyright laws are base on international treaties, you can universally say the copyright is void 70 years after the creator died.

    But of course in Germany we also have the proverb "Wo kein Kläger, da kein Richter" (No plaintiff, no judge).

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Depends what country you're from. In some countries you can't even get Blu-rays for shows that are still on the air, so does it make it legal?

    Like I said, it depends on country you're from, laws in our country are hella lot different when it comes to torrents than in USA for example.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    Well, the whole copyright issue for non-material goods is just a virtual judical issue.

    It doesn't matter if you "think" or "feel" if it is piracy, there are laws that directly depict if it is piracy (in your country). Since most copyright laws are base on international treaties, you can universally say the copyright is void 70 years after the creator died.
    But you can't physically own it unless you pay someone else who owns it, and is in no way, shape, or form connected to the people who were actually involved with it. If Gamestop or some normal chain of stores were still selling NES-Gamecube games, I'd probably be checking their inventory daily and would continue to buy them, but because I can't, unless I give XxDouchitronxX on eBay like $50 for an OLD GAME.

    So, y'know, yeah. If laws are actually protecting the eBay people, methinks some old laws need to be changed/scrapped, badly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgath View Post
    Depends what country you're from. In some countries you can't even get Blu-rays for shows that are still on the air, so does it make it legal?
    Because those shows are making money for being on the air, yeah, that's different, and that would be illegal. That's no different than going to the movies to see a movie in theaters rather than getting a bootleg copy.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Because those shows are making money for being on the air, yeah, that's different, and that would be illegal. That's no different than going to the movies to see a movie in theaters rather than getting a bootleg copy.
    But if there is no way to see it in my country? Talking about DvDs and such, not cinemas. Should I just not be allowed to see it then?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgath View Post
    But if there is no way to see it in my country? Talking about DvDs and such, not cinemas. Should I just not be allowed to see it then?
    If there is no legal way to watch or buy (from the creators) the show/movie where you live, I personally would say that that isn't piracy because you have literally no other choice, except buying a bootleg/import from someone not affiliated. Now if you know it WILL come to your country, then that's a bit different.

    To be fair, I'm more concerned about the old emulators than getting into the logistics of shows and movies, but still.
    Last edited by Polarthief; 2014-07-06 at 10:03 AM.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    If there is no legal way to watch or buy (from the creators) the show/movie where you live, I personally would say that that isn't piracy. Now if you know it WILL come to your country, then that's a bit different.
    Well like I said, laws are different because of reasons like this one. But for your specific case, I don't think that's piracy, but I honestly have no idea how extended that law is in USA.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurgath View Post
    Well like I said, laws are different because of reasons like this one. But for your specific case, I don't think that's piracy, but I honestly have no idea how extended that law is in USA.
    Knowing how retarded it is over here, I'd say the fact that I emulated a game made in 1981 is considered illegal and I'd be thrown in jail if anyone took action against me.

    But really, are the developers that I can't even pay for the game going to do that? Hell, if I could find the people who made SMRPG or the old FFs, I'd give them plenty of money for being awesome people.
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  13. #13
    Pit Lord lokithor's Avatar
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    Wow, I guess I'm the only one that considers it stealing. You're still taking money out of peoples pockets no matter how old it is.

    TV shows/movies mainly since they get paid royalties on everything that is sold or seen basically.

  14. #14
    Warchief Serenais's Avatar
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    Well, LEGALLY speaking, the copyright is still in place (I believe it's until the end of the life of the creator + 70 years afterwards?), at least for the US (no idea how long a copyright lasts here in EU, or elsewhere...), therefore technically it is stealing. Question is whether there's someone to steal from, since usually, the companies that held the copyright in vast majority of times (the older a platform you are emulating, the lower a chance of the company holding the (c) still existing) no longer exist, and I am not sure copyright can be bought with assets of a company that is undergoing legal cessation of existence.
    Either way, since the game no longer has any commercial value (or, shouldn't have - I seriously don't think a version of Pong for Windows 8, being exactly as it was in the time it was created, would do commercially well enough to justify the conversion from original format), going after the suspected pirate of a very old game is basically wasting money.
    As for old shows, depends. Considering that people are allowed to use videorecorders to record shows and, at least over here, copying a copy for your own viewing purposes is legal, technically downloading a show should be OK (as it falls under the same). If you can watch the show on TV (and "tape" it yourself in the process), but you download it, for whatever reason, you are, in a way, damaging the business of the TV company/station that created/aired the show, but here we are getting in an area of "go ahead and prove it", which isn't worth the hassle with a normal user.

    Of course, all that goes out of the window the moment someone tries to sell the stuff. That IS, and will be, illegal.
    Mind you, this all isn't a "go ahead and pirate, they don't care anymore" clause - that's stating that if you copy an a very old game/show, you aren't doing anything that would get you in prison (or shouldn't). In some cases, companies did transform, while keeping the original copyright - most people do not recall Sylicon and Synapse, but that doesn't mean that Blizzard, which it became later on, won't get your behind handed to you if you start distributing copies of The Lost Vikings.
    Last edited by Serenais; 2014-07-06 at 10:15 AM.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Personally I would say no, since they're so old that the games are no longer in circulation (well, except in the consumer hands). But for some reason, the more popular let's players on Youtube seem to belive its a crime.

    I don't know what to think.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Technically, it IS piracy, but the odds of any of the developers or owners of the games/shows taking legal action or sending cease and desist letters is pretty low. I wouldn't talk about it around people like the ones in the OP though.
    You could def say that yeah. Though if the games are no longer available to buy, I see no reason why not to emulate them.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by lokithor View Post
    Wow, I guess I'm the only one that considers it stealing. You're still taking money out of peoples pockets no matter how old it is.

    TV shows/movies mainly since they get paid royalties on everything that is sold or seen basically.
    I want to know who I am stealing from if there are no copies left in stores and the show is off the air. If the TV/Movie thing is too complicated, apply it just to the old games then (since I really don't care about the older shows stuff since I have Netflix anyways).
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  17. #17
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    Of course, all that goes out of the window the moment someone tries to sell the stuff. That IS, and will be, illegal.
    Well yeah I can't argue with that.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunvor View Post
    You could def say that yeah. Though if the games are no longer available to buy, I see no reason why not to emulate them.
    One could argue this is why people remake games (e.g., the Gen 1/2/3 remakes of Pokemon), but unless remakes are a 100% copy of the old games (which is not a SINGLE REMAKE EVER), it's completely different to play the old one vs the new. Pokemon for instance, the story and and zones may be the same, but there's a bit of extra content, on top of the moves made between old/remake, possibly new types (at least for Gen 1/3 remakes), none of the old bugs/glitches, more Pokemon, more features, etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    Of course, all that goes out of the window the moment someone tries to sell the stuff. That IS, and will be, illegal.
    Define "someone". Do people on eBay who aren't affiliated with the game count? Keep in mind there is no "developer fee" to pay for selling the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    but that doesn't mean that Blizzard, which it became later on, won't get your behind handed to you if you start distributing copies of The Lost Vikings.
    Funny you should say that: They're actually allowing anyone with a Battlenet account to download their 3 old SNES games, Lost Vikings, Blackthorne, and Rock 'n Roll Racing for free. If you go into the game downloader on battle.net, you'll find them there.

    So actually, no, I don't think Blizzard would care if you give away the game files they're giving away to anyone (again, for free)
    Still wondering why I play this game.
    I'm a Rogue and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that is updated for BfA.

  19. #19
    It is piracy (i.e. copyright infringement), but it is not *stealing*, because you're not depriving someone of the content so that you can have it. It is debatable, but unlikely, that you're also depriving someone of profit, since there's no available route for profits to flow to the copyright holder for stuff like old video games, or old obscure tv shows.

    If the content is unavailable in your country, there are many copyright owners/cartels (RIAA, MPAA, etc) that take the position that if the content isn't available, you have to go without. Those cartels have pushed the laws in many countries to support their views on copyright, which means that you would be, technically, breaking the law.

    Of course, you are also breaking the law when you're driving 101 kph in an 100 kph zone, right? If you're going to engage in copyright infringement, don't pretend it's legal when it isn't, even though in many cases it probably should be. And remember that "legal" and "moral" don't mean the same thing.

    Finally, keep in mind that different rightsholder groups approach piracy differently. The copyright holders for certain recent films (The Hurt Locker, for example) are very aggressive about copyright enforcement. Other organizations are much less rigid. Some groups even support so-called piracy, viewing it as free advertising.

    You might want to check out sites like Torrent Freak (or even the riaa/mpaa sites) for more information on the topic.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    I want to know who I am stealing from if there are no copies left in stores and the show is off the air. If the TV/Movie thing is too complicated, apply it just to the old games then (since I really don't care about the older shows stuff since I have Netflix anyways).
    You don't want to discuss facts - as the law - but you want to discuss it morally. That's fine, but your argument is not new, and it does not only apply to not longer available goods.
    If I would never pay for a movie (in cinema, as stream, as DVD...), but I watch an illegal stream, do I actually steal it? Who loses money?

    "Stealing" got a complete new definition when virtual goods became available. Before, when you took something from someone, he has lost it. Now, I can take something from someone without him losing anything.
    Earlier stealing meant you cause someone a loss, now it means you take something that you do not rightfully own. There's a difference, and that got written in law.

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