Warrior : a true hardened master of two-handed weapons.

[Archimtiros]

Hey guys, you have this going for a while now, can you both cut the bs and focus on topic each time pls? I don't see why we have to put up with walls of arguments everyday, come on. Just agree do disagree, end.

Well I've tried to be, but every time I point out the flaw with his idea he lashes out about Sims and balance when he clearly knows nothing about either. That and I am fairly argumentative and stubborn when making a point. My fault for arguing with stupid.

Flat and to the point; a talent or mastery like this simply doesn't fit into the game.

They don't like gating things to items. It adds too many requirements, especially on something like a talent, regardless of how close the balance is. The whole point of talents is choice. You choose the effect you want. Not choosing to have a mandatory effect based on the weapon you happen to have available to you.
This is compounded by the fact that you rarely, if ever, have access to multiple weapon types at the same time (outside of PvP, and even then you could argue as they are gated by CP).

Like I stated a couple times already, the idea could work fine for a talent tier, untied to weapons, where you choose which of the three effects you want.

In the end you can argue all day about what sims show is best, or how you could balance them out with other talents, or how much you like the idea better than IW or Ravager because you think they are boring but it doesn't matter. Weapon specializations simply no longer fit in the game World of Warcraft has evolved into, and that is a major reason they were removed in the first place.

There was no opinion stated. "I like weapon specs" is an opinion which nobody has a right to argue against, other than saying "I don't".

Arguing how you think weapon specs could/should be added in and how it would be balanced is not opinion it is stating hypothetical fact. I debunked it by pointing out the fairly obvious flaws, asking how they would be addressed and still haven't gotten an answer better than "you use whatever sims tell you is best" which has nothing to do with the question I asked in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

You use your current "status" to ....do what? Give a higher profile to ...your opinion? You are a typical 20 something ( I hope not older) no lifer whose whole life is oriented on WoW. You spend your whole day either in game or in forums trying to earn credit for what you think is an accomplishment. Because there is nothing else currently in your life worth mentioning.

Again, no opinions were stated, I am arguing hypothetical changes and how they would/not work.

And really, don't stoop to this kind of insulting. Not only is it poor taste; one you don't know a thing about me or what I've accomplished in my life. Two, it actually hurts your argument. Think about it, you are saying you understand design, balance and what does/not fit into the game better than someone you claim is a no lifer who spends all day talking about/playing it?

That is like saying you know how to play Chess better than a Grand Master because you've enjoyed it as a hobby for a few years and calling him a nerd at the same time for doing the exact same thing you do, only better.

[catablitz]

Wow, just was afk for 2-3 hours but you seem to refresh the page waiting to type your predetermined answer. Go do some beta mate, you are not useful in this thread. You wouldn't like such a talent. We got it. Now go away.

Every time I bring up the same question, what happens if you don't have access to the weapon you need for the effect you want, you dance around it with crap like "you may have loot drama in your guild!" or "its not about what you want to brag about". These aren't even answers to the damn question.

Ok, take a deep breath and open your eyes, I will do this for the last time.
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Long story short, for dps you pick another talent untill you get the drop you want and you are left 2% behind from max potential. Same thing happens when you don't get the drops you want anyway...but with slight higher effect.

If you don't have the sword you will pick one of the other 2 talents of that tier. If you want always to be viable and competitive for any given role in the game while specing whatever pleases you, it is not exactly balance, it is anarchy.

You might just want to pick the talent only for its tanking or pvp bonus.

So, in your scenario if you are bored of the 5% crit with axes for example and you want to try the 10% chance to stun with maces you just buy another weapon and the talent effect shifts to that. I repeat, you might not even be interested in that talent at all because ...numbers.

Anyway, I would pick such a talent.....actually let me rephrase that. I would like such a talent to be one of the 3 competitors, instead of let's say anger management.

This is answered in the part of "ways to work around it". Has ever been a TR without a sword? And in any case..hey, there are 2 other talents for you. End game is min-maxing. In my scenario you spec talent X because it is best until you get your sword and spec the talent Y and gain 2% dps increase. Until then, the talent is far from worthless because you know there are a couple of more roles in the game.

But you do control such a talent as long as you can equip a weapon..And I repeat..do not take for granted that it could be the best pve choice. It would simply be 10 times better than some shit like anger management or another mini cd.

Imaginary scenario: 1 talent that gives 5% crit and 5% less damage taken with axes, 15% chance to stun/daze with maces and 5% to parry/dodge/be missed, 10% chance for extra attack and 5% mastery with swords. Said talent competes against anger management and ravager.

This would mean: As protection you aim for axes as a the standard build. If it happens and you have another type, you can still make use out of it. In fact for a more dps oriented spec you can make use of that sword that you have enchanted and takes space in your bag. For gladiator pve/pvp you can use like...everything.

As dps you aim for what sims show best as it always happens. That could mean, depended on tuning, that you migh not even look twice to that talent. Or it could mean that you would be interested in it, if played fury only because of double bonus.

As pvp you would play around burst and control depending on size and setup of team.

In this same scenario, you would pick ravager for aoe and anger management if/when sims said so. Even when sims would so, swords better than AM, the talent could still be used for pvp or tanking.

I mean...seriously, such a talent would actually overshadow anything and if tuned correctly it would be used a lot for some roles during the whole expansion.

I actually addressed that issue in ....every previous post. Here let me highlight it again for you, since you seem to have comprehension problems.
-No matter what you do, you will always have a weapon, so talent always is a choice to get the benefit of that weapon against choosing one of the other two talents.
-Tuning, numbers, sims. You might not even want to use the talent for pve dps for a couple of tiers but only for pvp.
-IF SIMS say so, getting the proper weapon and being extra rewarded for that instead of simply having a BIS is much more satisfactory and there is no more RNG involved as getting the best stat wise weapon.
-Such a talent would be much more interesting than ignite weapon or anger management.
-It is theme fitting.
-It has limitless usefulness throughout all tiers for any possible role.
-Tuning of the boni would have impact on the rest stat choices and add depth.
-Tuning could even make 2 weapon types equal and balanced. One giving X versatility and other Y crit.
-If the best weapon isn't of the type you would get the best boost from, it is already taken into account when balancing classes.

This doesn't mean that if you can't / won't obtain it, you will be left behind in meters. Because... tuning and balance. Imagine right now you do 1M dps with a mace and an axe. Now imagine you loot a sword from next boss which is 6 ilvls higher. normally you would get say 8k more dps. but because it is a sword you will get 10K instead.

When you will choose the mace, you will ask your self "why the fuck isn't it a sword so I would get another 1,5% dps like sims show me?" - Well, because mom blizz already looked into that and decided your position in the foodchain.

Look it from another pov. Say that said talent does not exist. You pick what sims best and do 1M dps. Now, said talent does exist and the end game BIS is not "the right type" and you still do 1M dps. What is the problem? Talent strength can actually fluctuate during the tiers and moreover we are simply talking only for pve dps.

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I don't even know what this paragraph means. Likely because it is not even close to proper English. The only part that halfway made sense is that I only used the Beta threads to talk about bugs? I'm sorry, I guess the Beta threads are for making up random, inane changes, looking for ways to make them fit in the game and then crying when multiple people come up and tell you how they don't work?

It means that you try so hard to be influential and force readers to accept your perception. And no, beta threads are to share ideas and help the class develop through productive discussions. Exactly the opposite of what you are doing.
I do apologize for my English though. You see speaking 3 languages is hard some times.

The whole point of talents is choice. You choose the effect you want. Not choosing to have a mandatory effect based on the weapon you happen to have available to you.

Because you play SB out of choice, right? ROFL!

Weapon specializations simply no longer fit in the game World of Warcraft has evolved into, and that is a major reason they were removed in the first place.

When I used exactly the same words for HS removal......Oh man you are amusing. You just twist and stretch every possible notion of the class to justify your own preferences.

There was no opinion stated. "I like weapon specs" is an opinion which nobody has a right to argue against, other than saying "I don't".

Then why do you waste space?

It adds too many requirements, especially on something like a talent, regardless of how close the balance is

They have the skill and resources to create a pure hybrid class from scratch and they will not manage to implement WP talent? Cool story!

And really, don't stoop to this kind of insulting. Not only is it poor taste; one you don't know a thing about me or what I've accomplished in my life. Two, it actually hurts your argument. Think about it, you are saying you understand design, balance and what does/not fit into the game better than someone you claim is a no lifer who spends all day talking about/playing it?

Wow, really? You started a post with "I am the best warrior and who the fuck are you" but when I described your profile which doesn't take enough thought to understand you go decency mode?

This is what I know about you. I wake up in the morning, browse stuff while drinking coffee and here you are online. I am in my office relaxing at noon and here you are online. I go back home in the afternoon and here you are online. I browse forums before I hit the bed at night and here you are online.
How many hours does a day have in your town?

That is like saying you know how to play Chess better than a Grand Master because you've enjoyed it as a hobby for a few years and calling him a nerd at the same time for doing the exact same thing you do, only better

It is more like meeting an old friend and seeing him being a drug addict.

Just to end this charade, I will just ignore you from now on because I don't want to think that this is how I appeared to people back in my HC (timewise) times.
Keep seeking the recognition you desire because you think that you have accomplished something important. But don't be boring.
You wouldn't like such an idea. KK. Go away now or bring on PMs, no need to derail this interesting thread.

[Warriorsarri]

I'm gonna state what I said in my previous post, Catablitz, you're wrong.

Unless the weapon bonuses are purely artificial this system won't work. As I said before, they'll either need to base their balance on us being X% weaker or Z% stronger than their average curve thanks to the different weapon sorts. A system like this simply wouldn't work in a game that's not based around it, as was proven from Vanilla to Wrath.

[nowish]

Is this kindergarden or wtf?

I agree with Catablitz on most points tho.
Did you play with normal garrosh axe instead of the hc sha sword on progression because of the orc racial? Ofc you didn't, I dont see how it's different from having a "subpar weapon" with the talent suggested. I think the weapon spec. thing would add abit more character to the warrior class, dont really care tho. Regardless of how long you will use a certain weapon, just the thought of the weapons playing abit differently when you use them is cool IMO.
Do I dare to say gameplay>sims or will I get shot?

Btw sarri, Im pretty sure (at least arms) BiS weap in ulduar was the agi polearm!

[Deleted]

Well firstly I'd say that Eranthe has the correct philosophy on the talents. Everyone keeps harping on and getting bent out of shape on what may or may not become the "BEST". The specializations don't have to be about a direct DMG boost; and that's what I see everyone getting up in arms about. Like Eranthe said - make the talent choices have flavor and be situational...not about a DPS increase and you'll be golden. An example I like is the Tier 1 talents for the Shaman - all of them reduce damage but just in a different manner and their uses are based on situations thus making the choice more about what you like BEST & not what some spreadsheet informs you is BEST. The weapon specializations could be more akin to this.


I don't really have any ideas at this moment because I'm at work currently, but I'm sure I and the community could come up with something that was pretty creative and awesome. Just get away from ideas that will be a direct combat DPS boost or damage boost and you'll be ok. Lastly I'd like to say, let's chill with the insults and degrading of one another. We all play for the Warrior team.

Thank you sir , i was just about to say the same thing

[Kaljurei]

Weapon specific bonuses will never be implemented for 3 reasons.

1) They will either be underpowered or overpowered leading to QQ in both cases.
2) There will be more QQ because someone didn't get the weapon they wanted for the overpowered weapon talent.
3) Adds very little flavour because of the above reasons.

They already removed Exp bonuses on specific weapons for these fucking reasons. Why do you think they'd use counter-intuitive logic to bring something like this back? Yes, I'm aware they brought Stance Dancing back and that will be removed sooner or later.

Get over it. Stop wasting time on these discussions. I'm pretty sure you got better things to do than wasting time on the internet.

[Archimtiros]

Wow, just was afk for 2-3 hours but you seem to refresh the page waiting to type your predetermined answer. Go do some beta mate, you are not useful in this thread. You wouldn't like such a talent. We got it. Now go away.



Ok, take a deep breath and open your eyes, I will do this for the last time.
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No I saw them each time. They are simply poor answers and do not fix the central issue.
Maybe you do want the talent for tanking, but oh no, you don't have the correct weapon type. You can no no longer have access to the tanking bonus. How do you not understand this is poor design?

Choosing your talents based on min/max and based on what you want to do are two completely separate things. You are trying to combine the two, which is fine but still creates the issue that what effect you want, or what is best, is still gated behind having a particular weapon.

It means that you try so hard to be influential and force readers to accept your perception. And no, beta threads are to share ideas and help the class develop through productive discussions. Exactly the opposite of what you are doing.
I do apologize for my English though. You see speaking 3 languages is hard some times.

No, beta discussion is discussions on beta. Not "tell the devs what idea you'd like to have in the game." Sharing ideas is fine, but not it's point. You critique, give feedback and test.
And I'm sure speaking three languages is hard. Speaking three poorly sounds pretty easy however.

Because you play SB out of choice, right? ROFL!

Sometimes. Bloodbath is actually quite useful in a number of areas, and competitive enough as SMF to a point. With the above though, I have the choice of using another talent. If SB required maces but I had an axe I would not have the choice. Hence the problem with weapon specs. If using an Axe gave you bloodbath instead of Storm bolt but I wanted to use Storm bolt I would have no choice. Again, the talent system is there to give you options.

When I used exactly the same words for HS removal......Oh man you are amusing. You just twist and stretch every possible notion of the class to justify your own preferences.

Completely different situation. You can state an opinion, being happy HS is gone. However saying that HS doesn't fit into the game is completely incorrect; case in point: Gladiators.

They have the skill and resources to create a pure hybrid class from scratch and they will not manage to implement WP talent? Cool story!

Not sure what your definition of pure hybrid is. We have classes that are hybrid I that they can fulfill many roles through different specs, but no spec is truely hybrid anymore.
Still completely different from trying to did a way to include a talent that simy doesn't fit the game, just so you can say "yay I has a weapon spec".

Wow, really? You started a post with "I am the best warrior and who the fuck are you" but when I described your profile which doesn't take enough thought to understand you go decency mode?

Context is important in any language. You said you know how balance and design works better than I do. I pointed out that I am very commited to the game through time and effort, compared to your self admitted "barely playing anymore".
What I said wasn't targeted insults and I didn't try to make false assertions to your daily lifestyle to attempt to make myself look better.

This is what I know about you. I wake up in the morning, browse stuff while drinking coffee and here you are online. I am in my office relaxing at noon and here you are online. I go back home in the afternoon and here you are online. I browse forums before I hit the bed at night and here you are online.
How many hours does a day have in your town?

So let me break this down. What you are saying is you get on here multiple times a day a few hours between each visit. You post something. Few hours later you see a response, post again. Few more hours, another response; and you post again.

So what you are saying is that because I respond as often as you do makes me a no lifer, but you some kind of casual "4 times a day" forum user? Hypocritical doesn't begin to cover it.

You know what? I don't even care. Who are you to judge me? You know nothing about what I do and just because you think you are better than someone else doesn't make it true.

[quote]
It is more like meeting an old friend and seeing him being a drug addict.[/qoute]

You are implying that the friend needs your help. We've seen your ideas. This friend is much better off overdosing.

Just to end this charade, I will just ignore you from now on because I don't want to think that this is how I appeared to people back in my HC (timewise) times.
Keep seeking the recognition you desire because you think that you have accomplished something important. But don't be boring.
You wouldn't like such an idea. KK. Go away now or bring on PMs, no need to derail this interesting thread.

You know I never actually said I don't like weapon specs. I said they don't fit in the game anymore, and that your idea has obvious flaws that you refuse to address past "pick another talent, take the benefit you don't want, or no life grind another weapon". I've atleast been subjective enough I suggest fixes and alternatives. Heck, this wasn't even your thread, so no need to go around being bossy.