Entanglement Begins July 15!

[lawow74]

I weep for the people who find this challenging...

You just want attention, like a 25-year old who hangs out in front his high school wearing a varsity jacket.

I think that pretty well sums it up. But completing the story was never designed to be challenging, IMO. They meant challenge to be for the achievements available after the story's completed. Which I hope they'll start unlocking for the whole account instead of requiring you to repeat the story for each char you want to be viable for attempting the cheevs.

Personally I'm glad it's not all lolblob auto-1 to win content. Not that I have anything against that sort of thing, I enjoy it. I just like that there's more of a sense of a personal story and experience now.

[Deleted]

my time is precious to me so I prefer not to waste it.

Not that precious if you have time to shit-post and be derisive.

[Meledelion]

So you make a snide, rude remark about people who found a specific encounter added just this past week challenging, and then go on to indicate that you don't even play.

So how exactly would you know how difficult the content is or not?

Or are you just around to rustle jimmies? Because if that's the case things won't end well.

If you find it rude, infract me for it. You're a mod after all so it's within your right and power to do so. I made that remark because people always claim I said something which I didn't, people form opinions without actually reading what is being said and that pisses me off (I take it you noticed that already) like this:

Yes yes they're all baddies in a game you despise yet still play, we get it.

that's not a snide remark?

You just want attention, like a 25-year old who hangs out in front his high school wearing a varsity jacket.

that's not either I suppose?
It's the internet, people will be honest and yes, that can hurt your feelings but it doesn't matter. I don't hold a grudge against chrth for speaking his mind, and I don't care about insults because I know they're that and just that.
You apparently didn't read the rest of the conversation. I play when there's a lot of positive feedback, so I logged in since people seemed to like the story (which I also hinted at).

I really do not have any sympathy for people who struggle with slowing down adds, it's the same mechanic as CoF p2, cripple them and it's very easy since the minions keep running and the adds you have to kill don't(or at least are slowed down). In case you didn't notice a dog and a minion spawn in the same area, if you struggle with this concept try triage and just focus on one or two minions. I can't fathom that people don't come up with this stuff on their own, I simply can't.

I could've been far more rude and said anything ranging from "Not everyone has the same limits as you" to "you suck l2p". Could I be nice about it, sure. Would it make a difference, nope. I've said this not long ago, I have to be blunt/harsh since people have issues with reading comprehension, the most simplified way often is harsh but it gets the point across.
___________________________________________________________________________________
There's two things that annoy me about this topic:
1. Saying it's over tuned
2. Blaming it on gear

The first annoys me because the game lacks hard content and the content that is tuned well, so the average player can do it (yet nowhere near where I'd like it to be, but I've accepted this a while ago), people cry and want it made easier.
The second is the easy way out, just like "my team is so nooby", think about what you did and improve you'll even have fun doing it! Why can't you be happy that you beat that boss? Why do you have to be able to do everything (not specifically this, but more like Liadri etc...)? It's ok to fail, just get up and go at it again. You've now (I take it everyone who struggled eventually managed to do it) become a better player, aren't you proud of that? Do you not take joy from doing something which you couldn't at first?

Doing these things sends out the message "it's not me, I'm perfect, there's nothing I could improve upon" and thus I don't bother with giving friendly advice, it's not wanted anyway.

Not that precious if you have time to shit-post and be derisive.

When I'm on the toilet, I have plenty of time to write something. I could waste my time and just sit there but instead I browse the web. Or when I'm commuting etc...

[nevermore]

Meledelion, this whole conversation could've been avoided if you didn't post a flamebait on purpose.

I weep for the people who find this challenging...

This adds nothing to the conversation, other than make a few people angry/feel bad. Nothing.
It's psychological projection in its purest form.

Not to mention the content discussed could be challenging for people for reasons other than personal skill (old computers, high ping, etc).

I find it baffling that you get all defensive when you indirectly call people bad in an inflammatory manner and as a result multiple users call you out on it.
Like, seriously.

[Deleted]

Not to mention the content discussed could be challenging for people for reasons other than personal skill (old computers, high ping, etc).

You know, I never thought of that, it could have indeed been challenging because I had high ping yesterday. I mean, running around like crazy helped me avoid most circles, yet I still got hit even if there was nothing on the ground. So, you're right, my internet could have been part of the issue (along with those evil dogs).

[Meledelion]

Oh come on, if you can't figure out to slow the minions or to just focus on one or two so you guarantee you get at least those through, there's room for improvement on multiple areas.
We're not talking about people new to their class and who don't know the tools they have at their disposal, you have to be 80 to even start so is it really too much to ask some understanding of your class?
Especially if you then go and blame it on gear, that's simply pathetic. There's a difference to saying "god this content was a real challenge" and "this content is overtuned, it took me xxxxx". One is a simple statement about you which accepts your faults, the other is a call of entitlement.
Then we of course have a nice cherry "Agreed. I also don't have best gear. And I don't mind challenges, I like challenges. But this was not a challenge, it was just annoying. " that's just laughable, I like a challenge but it can't take more than 15min or it's annoying...

Here's another post, which is the absolute opposite and I have no issues with "I found it annoying, but mostly cos I hate invulnerability phases in fights."
"...and furthermore: it's a boss fight. I'm freakin HAPPY that it finally takes a bit of skill."
Do you see the difference? Do you notice the underlying tone?

Sure it could be but then they wouldn't specifically complain about gear or overtuning, they'd complain about the lag.
If high ping and old computers are a reason for not being able to do this fight, I wonder what fights they're not an issue. You're instanced and all attacks have clear and slow tells, there are skill challenges out there that are far less forgiving.

I find it baffling that people immediately blame gear for having a hard time doing certain content and when I call them out on it people get all defensive.
Like, seriously.

edit:

You know, I never thought of that, it could have indeed been challenging because I had high ping yesterday. I mean, running around like crazy helped me avoid most circles, yet I still got hit even if there was nothing on the ground. So, you're right, my internet could have been part of the issue (along with those evil dogs).

This is something I have no issues with, it happens and is a valid reason to have issues.

[Karizee]

We're not talking about people new to their class and who don't know the tools they have at their disposal, you have to be 80 to even start so is it really too much to ask some understanding of your class?

I've got 3 80s that I leveled just tooling around doing some map completion, maybe cooking and some EotM, that I never took into a dungeon, and still never got much beyond a level 30 or 40 open world zone. In other words I really have no idea how to play those classes. Couldn't even begin to tell you what weapons or skills are interrupts without looking. Having a level 80 means nothing.

I found the encounter fairly challenging. It's not a Liadri 200 attempts challenging but it took me a couple of attempts to sort out what was happening, what the tells and mechanics are. Then I had to adjust my build to work with the fight. This was on my main that I know very very well.

I think it's ok for it to have that level of challenge in a Living Story instance since you can bring other players in. I would not care to see ALL story instances tuned that tightly, but I think if they throw one fairly challenging instance in per 2 week chapter it's ok. It's a game, not a job

[Deleted]

I actually agree with Meledelion, but it's his tone/attitude about it that sucks. The fight wasn't hard if you paid attention and noticed you should kill the turret plants, then keep the wolves off the minions rather than just trying to DPS them. Like I said, I did it on a Thief with a mix of rares and exotics so by no means am I well geared, and my solitary death was due to not being ready for condition spam that chewed through my piddly health pool (0 defensive stats). I think if it took you 15 minutes and so many deaths that it frustrated you, you might look to improving your play and general awareness (and maybe your build) before you call it overtuned/badly tuned/badly designed.

[Meledelion]

Dodging isn't class specific, figuring out that slowing the doggies isn't either nor is the concept of triage.
If it's too much of a hastle to open your hero pannel to look for a skill that slows the enemy, you shouldn't be able to complete the encounter.

You're also talking about alts, I don't see why anyone would play through LS on their alt first.
The last thing is important, you have 2weeks to do this fight. If you don't succeed today, try again tomorrow (or whenever you have time).

I'm just flabbergasted that people consider this "... but it took me a couple of attempts to sort out what was happening, what the tells and mechanics are. Then I had to adjust my build to work with the fight..." to be a negative. You just mastered your class a bit more which is awesome.

Weirdly I actually agree with Meledelion, but it's his tone/attitude about it that sucks.

I CBA to be nice on forums anymore, there's always some idiot (I mean it) who comes in with no proof, no reasoning and just starts chiming "NO NO NO NO NO", so I stopped being nice. I'm blunt, harsh and rough around the edges but people get the message instead of reading over it.

Anchors not being a thing, toughness/vit being training wheels (atleast in PvE), EA, Vuln>Might, party composition, the lie about why they were changing zerker, what class has highest theoretical dps, how you should approach certain encounters, ...

Please post productively and respectfully. Infracted. -Edge

[Karizee]

I mentioned alts as a way to gauge difficulty for new players. New players would probably find this very hard and would need to bring in some help.

I know you have 2 weeks to finish (well, actually you have forever now) but that instance isn't designed to be played for 2 weeks. There's tons of other content plus the rest of the game still going on. There's a new zone to explore, bunches of events, tons of achievements, 3 more instances to do and fossils to find if you want the ambrite weapons. Don't forget they *want* the players to see the end cinematic. This is not exclusive content.

So talking about the range of difficulty for a new player and a seasoned veteran. The new player will need help, a seasoned player looking for even more challenge can play through again for the harder achievements. I think they hit it pretty square on.

[Meledelion]

" I think they hit it pretty square on. "
Exactly, as I said, I'm not looking for content that challenges me personally (not anymore anyway) so when they finally put something in which is tuned pretty OK for 'the average player', it's disheartening to see people shout "overtuned" straight away.

[Svifnymr]

You know, I never thought of that, it could have indeed been challenging because I had high ping yesterday. I mean, running around like crazy helped me avoid most circles, yet I still got hit even if there was nothing on the ground. So, you're right, my internet could have been part of the issue (along with those evil dogs).

I was taking a necro around Dry Top yesterday and lag decided to play with me during the Collocoid (whatever) Queen. I just thought I was slow at the movement at first, until one really bad lag spike made it obvious. I clicked an ability, nothing happened, everyone just stood there for 2 seconds.

Then I was dead, and everyone was 30' away.

[Deleted]

Hmm.... I think I'll stay in this box.

[Gray_Matter]

There's two things that annoy me about this topic:
1. Saying it's over tuned
2. Blaming it on gear

The first annoys me because the game lacks hard content and the content that is tuned well, so the average player can do it (yet nowhere near where I'd like it to be, but I've accepted this a while ago), people cry and want it made easier.

The concept of an average player doesn't exist. Some people play with very high latency that makes jumping puzzles as an example close to impossible. Those same people might have no problem doing a speed run of X. My youngest daughter who was 6 at the time could do most jumping puzzles while running sideways. People will battle with different parts of the game and might even battle with everything.

Something that you find trivial could well be too hard for some people and overtuned for them. Insulting them doesn't do you any favors, it just makes you sound like a p...k.

- - - Updated - - -

You know, I never thought of that, it could have indeed been challenging because I had high ping yesterday. I mean, running around like crazy helped me avoid most circles, yet I still got hit even if there was nothing on the ground. So, you're right, my internet could have been part of the issue (along with those evil dogs).

I used to play on the EU servers from South Africa. When Labyrinthine Cliffs first opened up I had to get a mesmer to help me up to the top level. I could do the first set of jumps to get up there because of the lag.

[Meledelion]

"The concept of an average player doesn't exist." that's just silly, ofc it does. Just like the average American household exists, or the average college student or w/e.

"Some people play with very high latency that makes jumping puzzles as an example close to impossible." Which has nothing to do with the difficulty of the jumping puzzle. Bad latency affects you, not the puzzle.

"People will battle with different parts of the game and might even battle with everything." yes, that's why content is tuned so the majority of players (or the average player) can do it, just like how products are generally marketed so the average household can afford it.

"Something that you find trivial could well be too hard for some people and overtuned for them." tuning has nothing to do with personal skill. Tuning has to do with the object (in this case LS) so that the (here we go again) average user gets the best/desired experience. Just like how cars are tuned so that the average person enjoys driving them. If someone doesn't like how the car is tuned that's fine but that doesn't mean that shouting "It's overtuned, you can't corner with it!" is correct. However saying "I can't corner with it so I tuned it down." is valid. As I said before, the difference is that one is denying fault of the user.

Another example would be airplanes, the seats are "tuned" so that the average person can be seated (reasonably, although not as much as liked) comfortable. If you're 8ft tall and aren't comfy, it doesn't mean that the seats are overtuned.

[Tazila]

Well then, I came here hoping people were talking about the patch on the 27th.

Yikes.


Trailor looked exciting. =[

[Kalcheus]

Well then, I came here hoping people were talking about the patch on the 27th.

Yikes.


Trailor looked exciting. =[

Here you go

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...s-Reach-Part-1

[Gray_Matter]

"The concept of an average player doesn't exist." that's just silly, ofc it does. Just like the average American household exists, or the average college student or w/e.

It's more like an average pair of shoes than those. There are average mens shoe sizes and average womans shoe sizes. These are different for different races. Within those groups there are people with different arch heights, etc. So the most common pair of shoes might be a size 10 with a medium arch but that may only cover 5% of the population. It's the same with GW2. Which average player are you talking about? The person who spends the majority of their time doing PVP or the one who plays it like an RPG? The average depends on what your selection criteria looks like. If it's the whole GW2 player base then it could be way overtuned for the type of people who would typically do this type of content.

"Some people play with very high latency that makes jumping puzzles as an example close to impossible." Which has nothing to do with the difficulty of the jumping puzzle. Bad latency affects you, not the puzzle.

Of course thats true but the content should be tuned to a certain level of latency. You might stay a block away from the servers which would make the content much easier for you. The content difficulty needs to take into account the various levels of latency. For example, if there was a red circle that you need to run out of, a time of 1 second could be ample of notice for someone with a 100ms latency and certain death for a person with 1000ms latency. The content needs to take that into account.

"People will battle with different parts of the game and might even battle with everything." yes, that's why content is tuned so the majority of players (or the average player) can do it, just like how products are generally marketed so the average household can afford it.

Exactly, and that may not be the case here. If you take the whole GW2 player base, the average difficulty should be below that of people who, as an example, typically run dungeons. Your view of something being easy is just as subjective as someone who thinks it's overtuned. It all depends on where you are coming from.

"Something that you find trivial could well be too hard for some people and overtuned for them." tuning has nothing to do with personal skill. Tuning has to do with the object (in this case LS) so that the (here we go again) average user gets the best/desired experience. Just like how cars are tuned so that the average person enjoys driving them. If someone doesn't like how the car is tuned that's fine but that doesn't mean that shouting "It's overtuned, you can't corner with it!" is correct. However saying "I can't corner with it so I tuned it down." is valid. As I said before, the difference is that one is denying fault of the user.

Another example would be airplanes, the seats are "tuned" so that the average person can be seated (reasonably, although not as much as liked) comfortable. If you're 8ft tall and aren't comfy, it doesn't mean that the seats are overtuned.

It's all about perspective. As I said above, the person saying that the content is overtuned could well be right. If the majority of people doing the content are battling with it then that would be the case. We don't know that. Of course it's their opinion that it's overtuned, but that goes without say on forums. Pretty much everything that anyone says is.

[Meledelion]

" If it's the whole GW2 player base then it could be way overtuned for the type of people who would typically do this type of content."
Then its' not overtuned, that's the thing. Just because someone can't do it doesn't mean it's overtuned, see the leg space example (although I'm sure you understand my point).

"Your view of something being easy is just as subjective as someone who thinks it's overtuned. It all depends on where you are coming from."
Yes but I already took that into account, for giggles I just did it on a naked toon (cause I can). Which means I don't find it easy, I find it ridiculously easy. I'm a better than average player (according to Maarius and others), which means that with armor it should be quite achievable for the average player.

"We don't know that. Of course it's their opinion that it's overtuned, but that goes without say on forums."
Again, I understand this. My issue is with the implied shifting of the issue (basically attitude), instead of asking advice/checking how others do it they instantly blame gear and overtuned.

As for not knowing who the average player is (or what the average skill level is), one person said he struggled and gave up and another blamed it on tuning and gear (after which, the first person also started blaming gear although without any emphasis). In response 5 people (excluding me) said they didn't have any issues and one for whom it took some tries.

I do not have any issue with people thinking this content is hard, I get annoyed when people blame everything but themselves.

[Deleted]

I do not have any issue with people thinking this content is hard, I get annoyed when people blame everything but themselves.

I went there with a second character. It was geared better, and I had no lag. I did die once, but after 25 min I had finished the scenario fully alone. So, allow me to say that yes, the gear of the first character and the lag had everything to do with my failure and me being upset on my first character. That being said, the encounter was not fun even on my second character, where did well. It was just annoying.

- - - Updated - - -

I was taking a necro around Dry Top yesterday and lag decided to play with me during the Collocoid (whatever) Queen. I just thought I was slow at the movement at first, until one really bad lag spike made it obvious. I clicked an ability, nothing happened, everyone just stood there for 2 seconds.

Then I was dead, and everyone was 30' away.

Yeah, that's preety much the same experience I had at first with this boss. There was nothing on the ground, I use a skill, it seems to fire but nothing happens, 2 seconds later 3/4 of my life was gone and there's a hound besides me who appeared from nowhere. After doing the same encounter with no lag, I'm actually starting to think that the hounds don't even actually jump that much, it just seemed to me that way because of the lag.