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  1. #1

    Lightbulb I think every WoW debate is down to "RPG vs non-PRG elements".

    Been thinking recently about exactly what has changed in WoW from the time it was released until now. Basically my conclusion is that the developers wanted to make a great RPG game at launch, with things like balance and quality of life slightly less prioritized in order to achieve a great and immersive RPG experience.

    Slowly but surely, as time has gone on and as new developers have replaced the old, I think the general idea and direction of what WoW is has simply changed. The new philosophy seems to be one more of 'constant fun', extreme quality of life, fast paced action and 'twitch gameplay'.

    I'll list a few examples to explain what I mean concisely.

    No flying debate: I think the RPG elements are quite obvious on this one, more time spent in the world with more people in the world. That's it, period. The other side is "why would I want to spend MORE time in the world, it's a waste of time! I just want to get to the action so I can have fun (raiding/PvP).

    Class balance / homogenization: From a RPG perspective classes don't have to be balanced at all. Stone, paper, scissors. This adds greatly to players really feeling like their class, and a unique experience comparatively to other classes. From a more action game, quick pace oriented approach this doesn't make sense though. Why force people to wait for a specific class to do some group activity? Give everyone nearly every ability so whatever group formation forms, all abilities and buffs in game will be present. The downside? Imagine the extreme example of this: every class exactly the same with just different spell names and animations (basically masks). Not so exiting.

    LFG/LFR: RPG's, the MMO variants at least, since conception were always very heavily focused on communication. It's not easy getting anywhere in the real world if you decide to never talk and only do things you can do on your own, so why would it be in a game that's basically emulating real life but in an alternative setting? Putting the effort in to looking for a group and being a good group member was much more rewarding than going solo. From the newer design ideology though, this is the opposite of the truth. People enjoy playing solo -> nearly everything should be soloable. If a group is required, why force people to look for each other? Just do it automatically so people can log in, have some action, and log out.

    Flavor: When the game launched there were tons of things (spells, items, gear etc) that didn't really serve a purpose other than making the world feel real and deep. If you don't value RPG elements though, these are basically 100% useless, so why even have them in the game?

    I could go on and on but this post is already much longer than I intended. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but I think this is quite interesting and often try to understand what Blizzard's design intentions are, and how extremely deviated it seems to be from when the game launched. I think it probably is time for a lot of people to realize maybe WoW isn't the game for them any more, but easier said than done after you've invested countless hours of countless years into the game.

  2. #2
    The reason why nobody has replied to this yet is because it's all true and you didn't pick a side so the other side can get outraged by it because their preference is better.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by gowron View Post
    The reason why nobody has replied to this yet is because it's all true and you didn't pick a side so the other side can get outraged by it because their preference is better.
    I only just saw this thread.

    But I agree that's probably why people aren't responding. You make very good points OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If a building's about to collapse, you can debate whether it's better to demolish it or repair it, and you can make political-agenda arguments either way. Disputing gravity itself to claim it won't fall down is not a political position, it's just ignorance.

  4. #4
    Legendary! Taftvalue's Avatar
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    yes I also think that's exactly what has changed in this game. it used to be an rpg, nowdays well not so much.
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.
    Tell them only that the Lich King is dead and that World of Warcraft died with him.

  5. #5
    RPG is a very subjective term. Take this for instance:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    No flying debate: I think the RPG elements are quite obvious on this one, more time spent in the world with more people in the world. That's it, period. The other side is "why would I want to spend MORE time in the world, it's a waste of time! I just want to get to the action so I can have fun (raiding/PvP).
    What if someone incorporates flying mounts into their RP?

    Furthermore the main point of RP is not that the developers force it by design but that players create it themselves.

  6. #6
    Legendary! Taftvalue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    RPG is a very subjective term. Take this for instance:


    What if someone incorporates flying mounts into their RP?

    Furthermore the main point of RPG is not that the developers force it by design but that players create it themselves.
    no rpg games ever have flying. and for a good reason. now that you opened that can of worms this thread is as good as dead.

    Last edited by Taftvalue; 2014-07-10 at 04:10 PM.
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.
    Tell them only that the Lich King is dead and that World of Warcraft died with him.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    no rpg games ever have flying. and for a good reason. now that you opened that can of worms this thread is as good as dead.
    Glad that you didn't address my point at all.

  8. #8
    Legendary! Taftvalue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Glad that you didn't address my point at all.
    except I did, you asked what if someone corporated it into an rpg? I told you nobody does and with good reason.
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.
    Tell them only that the Lich King is dead and that World of Warcraft died with him.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    except I did, you asked what if someone corporates it into this rpg? I told you nobody does
    And this is the moment when I ask evidence for that bold claim.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    And this is the moment when I ask evidence for that bold claim.
    http://www.ign.com/top/rpgs/100

    I'm sure you can find one or two where there is flying, it is the exception that proves the rule.

    also you can ask for a lot buddy, don't expect me to feel like I have to prove anything to you
    Last edited by Taftvalue; 2014-07-10 at 04:26 PM.
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.
    Tell them only that the Lich King is dead and that World of Warcraft died with him.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    http://www.ign.com/top/rpgs/100

    I'm sure you can find one or two where there is flying, it is the exception that proves the rule.
    That doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand. And now I'm beginning to question whether you even know what the RP in RPG stands for.

  12. #12
    I agree, as a huge fan of the RPG genre, I don't even really look at WoW as a real RPG anymore.

    The "soul" of WoW died when LFG/LFR came, allowing people to act like an ass with zero consequences, which in turn pisses nice players off, which in turn causes them to be asses.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Furthermore the main point
    ^^ See this. Guy picks a side, argument ensues, topic trends.
    Take heed for starting a successful topic for next time OP

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chingylol View Post
    I agree, as a huge fan of the RPG genre, I don't even really look at WoW as a real RPG anymore.

    The "soul" of WoW died when LFG/LFR came, allowing people to act like an ass with zero consequences, which in turn pisses nice players off, which in turn causes them to be asses.
    I don't think LFG in itself is the problem (LFR IS!) if it weren't for the teleporting across the world it'd be a great feature and you'd still feel immersed into this huge beautiful world. it should just group you with others and you should have to move your ass to the damn instance. I mean what was immersive about spamming 'lfg scholo' in /2 ? traveling there with your companions was immersive imo
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.
    Tell them only that the Lich King is dead and that World of Warcraft died with him.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    Imagine the extreme example of this: every class exactly the same with just different spell names and animations (basically masks). Not so exiting.
    Well yes, that's the extreme end of it. Good thing we aren't there. In the realm of current reality it's either a non-issue or hyperbole to discuss the "we're all the same class!" concept.

    Putting the effort in to looking for a group and being a good group member was much more rewarding than going solo. From the newer design ideology though, this is the opposite of the truth.
    Or it's not the exact opposite and you're taking that a bit too far. Grouping up is currently, as it always has been, more beneficial than doing things alone except when you're trying to get a rare drop that everyone would want. The issue is that there used to be group-only events outside of raids and pvp.

    Flavor: When the game launched there were tons of things (spells, items, gear etc) that didn't really serve a purpose other than making the world feel real and deep. If you don't value RPG elements though, these are basically 100% useless, so why even have them in the game?
    You're going to have to name some of those. We still get flavor items from quests constantly. Pandaria was littered with "expensive vendor trash" with flavor text based on their location and surroundings. Most everything that was removed already did serve a purpose, its just been consolidated because it was taking up unnecessary amounts of room.

    but I think this is quite interesting and often try to understand what Blizzard's design intentions are, and how extremely deviated it seems to be from when the game launched.
    The thing is, to some of us it really hasn't deviated that much other than touching up. It's like someone drew you a picture of a house but it had vague scribbles for coloring, didn't follow the lines very well and there were coffee stains all over it. Now we have a picture of a house with texture and depth. There was never any more immersion before than there is now, it was just a side-effect of it being new.

    I think it probably is time for a lot of people to realize maybe WoW isn't the game for them any more, but easier said than done after you've invested countless hours of countless years into the game.
    Practically every single day this forum has a "why don't I/you shouldn't enjoy wow anymore" thread. You've summed up your opinion politely and neatly but it's nothing new - even new to this week.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    no rpg games ever have flying. and for a good reason. now that you opened that can of worms this thread is as good as dead.

    pic
    I'll just leave this here...


    See what I did there?

    Ever wonder how an RPG would look like if devs weren't lazy fucks and expanded upon all dimensions properly instead of religiously adhering to ye olden limits of yore? Me too...

    Technology has progressed somewhat, brains like the past (and being in their comfort zones) too much.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ærion View Post
    I'll just leave this here...


    See what I did there?

    Ever wonder how an RPG would look like if devs weren't lazy fucks and expanded upon all dimensions properly instead of religiously adhering to ye olden limits of yore? Technology has progressed somewhat, brains like the past (and being in their comfort zones) too much.
    yeah but how can a forest have flying islands? This might work if we go to some devasted Legion planet that's basically ripped apart. On Draenor? Not so much.
    There is only one god and his name is Sargeras.
    Tell them only that the Lich King is dead and that World of Warcraft died with him.

  18. #18
    No Flying: This is from a gameplay mechanic stand point. Flying makes questing excessively easy, it also allows you to skip large chunks of what an art team worked on. Even completely nonrpg games have nice things to look at. It has nothing really to do with a rpg/non-rpg debate.

    Class Balance/Class homogenization: This one also tends to be less of an rpg debate and more of a purely mechanical debate. You still need to pve/pvp for half of that lovely rp gear that you can rock, and having class balance allows for that to flow more smoothly. Also immersion would only take a hairline fracture to having homogenization.

    LFR/LFG: It is something that is both loved and hated by both sides and was placed in out of necessity. I can see some issues people might have to immersion with it, but normally you are too wrapped up in the dungeon or raid as it is so it likely isn't much of an issue. I still get immersed in the scenery and game play when doing either.

    Flavor: Lends more to your argument. I miss a lot of the flavor things that they have been stripping for classes for an honestly needed game play clean up. I don't really have much of an argument against your own with it. Away from abilities and spells though, the game is bursting with rpg tone toys and gear, something that they continually pour into it.

    As it stands, most of the debates tend to be geared around specific aspects rather than an rpg vs non-rpg tones, as that is a bit vague and broad. Sure you can shoehorn in something into a debate like that, but it feels a bit forced at the same time.

    Must get more coffee in my system, I don't do well with early forums.

  19. #19
    Daze and ganking make the game SOOOO fun and I LOVE to see all the people around stealing my quest objectives
    I really want to see the same trees over and over walking inbetween quests, I also have to fly if I don't want it
    Don't get me started on how much more time it's going to take for travel and gathering


    ^this is reality of not having flying mounts

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    yeah but how can a forest have flying islands? This might work if we go to some devasted Legion planet that's basically ripped apart. On Draenor? Not so much.
    Just for a moment, would you kindly, stop being a jack. You got my point. I simply illustrated it in a 2d plane. No floating islands needed, try cliff walls instead if you must, try any number of things on different levels without a convenient fucking set of stairs.

    I wonder however the fuck they managed to design Deepholm and not have people "skipping" content left and right... oh yeah, they put just a bit of effort in it. Fukken amazing, that.

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