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  1. #21
    can we stop getting no flying in wod threads?
    JAY-how-long-does-it-take-me-to-get-LOCKed-out-again in one sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    You seem to have a strong dislike of people that you deem inferior (based on whatever criteria) having the same things as you, even if they look slightly different and are much weaker than your version (ie LFR tier), based on some abstract concept that you "deserve" it and they do not, based again on some arbitrary criteria.

  2. #22
    Let's get this out with since there still seems to be some confusion about RP:

    Fighting mobs and avoiding/not avoiding objects is not what defines Role Playing.

  3. #23
    So basically Blizz kinda sold out to the fad, Since everything is instant they made the gaming instant aswell.

  4. #24
    No flying debate: I think the RPG elements are quite obvious on this one, more time spent in the world with more people in the world. That's it, period. The other side is "why would I want to spend MORE time in the world, it's a waste of time! I just want to get to the action so I can have fun (raiding/PvP).
    Really? Not so obvious to me then. In the world where flight on mounts is already established it is suddenly disallowed, forcing a player into a different playstyle. And no, flying and enjoying your time spent in the world do not contradict themselves.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    I'll list a few examples to explain what I mean concisely.
    You're totally wrong in almost every point. So wrong in fact that you're probably confusing between terms or not really know what RPG means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    No flying debate:
    Flying belongs in Azeroth. The air taxis were in the game from day one and any noob could use those. Flying mounts is just the idea of buying the damn mount instead of renting it. There's nothing that would be breaking immersion in this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    Class balance / homogenization: From a RPG perspective classes don't have to be balanced at all. Stone, paper, scissors.
    The "G" stands for game. Cooperative games need to be balanced for all players or they stop being fun. This is simple common sense. This is painfully obvious from the earliest pen & paper RPGs to WoW's current incarnation that when the classes aren't balanced some people are having fun and the others are not. Competitive game (PvP) would benefit from perfect imbalance but since that doesn't fly in PvE environment Blizzard devs need to aim for balance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    LFG/LFR: RPG's, the MMO variants at least, since conception were always very heavily focused on communication.
    Not really MMO just refers to a game with many players online at the same time. You can easily find hundreds of whineposts in both US and EU forums regarding mixed-language servers. In such environment you can't expect or assume people are willing or even able to communicate with each other. Since communication is not possible, the game (again for game fun) need to facilitate playing it without communication required as much as possible. You still can't do highest end PvP or PvE without communicating with people, but everything else is open as it should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    Flavor: When the game launched there were tons of things (spells, items, gear etc) that didn't really serve a purpose other than making the world feel real and deep. If you don't value RPG elements though, these are basically 100% useless, so why even have them in the game?
    There's more actual flavor in MoP than any other previous version of the game. There's consistent backstory, characters that fit into it and feel like they belong to the place where they live, items you can find in the open world that would come from the local creatures and so on. Old WoW was just a mess without any logic in the loot or environments, totally lacking consistency.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Let's get this out with since there still seems to be some confusion about RP:

    Fighting mobs and avoiding/not avoiding objects is not what defines Role Playing.
    Indeed.

    It's a bit hard playing a flight master if you're grounded though >_>

    (sorry, I had to, it's the last time I promise, I've run out of steam anyway)

  7. #27
    Heh; Thinking about it a bit more you actually couldn't be more right imo. Nearly every argument i've had on this forum is a Convenience vs Immersion(RPG) debate, I feel like if a player enjoys something, there's not going to be a lot that makes them enjoy the opposite of it more. For example; I love difficult games, I don't care if they take me months to beat, it keeps me going and it gives me something to look forward to beating - But most of my friends won't put in more than a couple of hours into these games before putting them down because they can't be bothered. Different people have different flavours and I doubt they'll change tbh; The sole purpose of a game is usually for it to be fun, but each of our definitions of 'fun' waver quite a lot.

    Blizzard realizes that and is trying to address it by giving something to everyone, and while that sounds great on paper - It doesn't work well in a MMORPG imho.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Heh; Thinking about it a bit more you actually couldn't be more right imo. Nearly every argument i've had on this forum is a Convenience vs Immersion(RPG) debate, I feel like if a player enjoys something, there's not going to be a lot that makes them enjoy the opposite of it more. For example; I love difficult games, I don't care if they take me months to beat, it keeps me going and it gives me something to look forward to beating - But most of my friends won't put in more than a couple of hours into these games before putting them down because they can't be bothered. Different people have different flavours and I doubt they'll change tbh; The sole purpose of a game is usually for it to be fun, but each of our definitions of 'fun' waver quite a lot.

    Blizzard realizes that and is trying to address it by giving something to everyone, and while that sounds great on paper - It doesn't work well in a MMORPG imho.
    I thought that it was a perfect disguise for their PvP agenda. No? Okay then...

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Let's get this out with since there still seems to be some confusion about RP:
    You're the one who seems confused, because OP isn't talking about Role Playing in terms of that thing that goes on RP servers.

  10. #30
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    no rpg games ever have flying. and for a good reason. now that you opened that can of worms this thread is as good as dead.

    Only between x-pac start and max level there usually is no flying. You do your content while levelling. ToT and TI, the endgame zones also have no flying. Inside raids and 5 mans..no flying (hell, mostly not even riding)

    As always it isn't black and white. When I nowadays go with three alts to BT, MC, BWL or TK to farm stuff, I sure as hell am glad that I can fly...especially inside Blackrock Mountain. There is no content to be had on the ground. Just inconvinience.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post

    I'm sure you can find one or two where there is flying, it is the exception that proves the rule.

    also you can ask for a lot buddy, don't expect me to feel like I have to prove anything to you
    Out of the top 10, three have flying. (WoW, FF IV airship, FF VI airship)
    Two have instantaneous fast-travel from any location on the world map to any discovered PoI. (Fallout 3, Skyrim)
    One has near-instantaneous portals to take you from where you are to the hub and then back to where you left. (Diablo II)
    And Mass Effect's idea of open world is very limited, with each area being mostly linear and relatively short. There's no need for fast travel because there's nothing between levels except a ride on the Normandy.

    One of the grand-daddy's of modern RPGs, Final Fantasy, had player flight once you got the airship.

    So no, lack of fast and convenient travel is not a rule. By all means, add Skyrim/Fallout's instantaneous out-of-combat fast-travel to WoW so players can hop from anywhere on the map to every castle, fort, cave, town, dungeon, etc. that they've discovered.

    Taking away flying is adding in a time-sink, because Blizzard can't or won't develop interesting things to do between point A and B.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by gowron View Post
    You're the one who seems confused, because OP isn't talking about Role Playing in terms of that thing that goes on RP servers.
    So you're still confused about the nature of RP...

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    yeah but how can a forest have flying islands? This might work if we go to some devasted Legion planet that's basically ripped apart. On Draenor? Not so much.
    A forest can have flying islands in a fantasy RPG. Just like Avatar has flying islands. The developers are lazy and lack imagination.
    Quote Originally Posted by joeyray View Post
    what? you can knock people off ground mounts with auto attack.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    no rpg games ever have flying. and for a good reason. now that you opened that can of worms this thread is as good as dead.

    Just add content in the air.

    Author of: Goggle Cat Comics.

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    RPG is a very subjective term. Take this for instance:


    What if someone incorporates flying mounts into their RP?

    Furthermore the main point of RP is not that the developers force it by design but that players create it themselves.
    Traditional role-playing games do not have baseline flying because it is largely game-breaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Astarin View Post
    One of the grand-daddy's of modern RPGs, Final Fantasy, had player flight once you got the airship.
    The Final Fantasy games in question are not multiplayer games where flight has any impact whatsoever on player interaction. Further to that, flight within Final Fantasy (IV and VI) exists only on the World Map, a space devoid of any content other than random battles. Flight does not exist within actual Level Maps within Final Fantasy. As such it cannot be used to skip meaningful content.

    A proper comparison to the way flight is implemented in WoW, for instance, would be if it could be used to simply fly to the top of Kefka's Tower in FFVI (a Level Map, not the World Map), skipping the challenging all-magic gauntlet run and easily returning Strago to the party.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2014-07-10 at 05:18 PM.
    Warlords of Draenor Beta - July 4, 2014

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    http://www.ign.com/top/rpgs/100

    I'm sure you can find one or two where there is flying, it is the exception that proves the rule.

    also you can ask for a lot buddy, don't expect me to feel like I have to prove anything to you
    Um, in Final Fantasy 6, the number 1 RPG on that list, (which I don't agree with at all, I think 6 is shit, but my personal opinion is irrelevant in this case) they give you an Airship at endgame. It lets you fly around, and is pretty much used to get from point A to point B. Airships have been a staple of Final Fantasy since the original. Just look at the list! http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Airships
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Traditional role-playing games do not have baseline flying because it is largely game-breaking



    The Final Fantasy games in question are not multiplayer games where flight has any impact whatsoever on player interaction. Further to that, flight within Final Fantasy (IV and VI) exists only on the World Map, a space devoid of any content other than random battles. Flight does not exist within actual Level Maps within Final Fantasy. As such it cannot be used to skip meaningful content.

    A proper comparison to the way flight is implemented in WoW, for instance, would be if it could be used to simply fly to the top of Kefka's Tower in FFVI (a Level Map, not the World Map), skipping the challenging all-magic gauntlet run and easily returning Strago to the party.
    dragon warrior 3 had it. breath of fire had it. pretty sure final fantasy had it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Traditional role-playing games do not have baseline flying because it is largely game-breaking



    The Final Fantasy games in question are not multiplayer games where flight has any impact whatsoever on player interaction. Further to that, flight within Final Fantasy (IV and VI) exists only on the World Map, a space devoid of any content other than random battles. Flight does not exist within actual Level Maps within Final Fantasy. As such it cannot be used to skip meaningful content.

    A proper comparison to the way flight is implemented in WoW, for instance, would be if it could be used to simply fly to the top of Kefka's Tower in FFVI (a Level Map, not the World Map), skipping the challenging all-magic gauntlet run and easily returning Strago to the party.
    I disagree entirely with your comparison. Flight in Final Fantasy and wow is almost exactly the same concerning purpose. Kefka's tower is relevant content, and therefore you can't fly in it. You can never fly in relevant content in wow. Raids, pvp, dungeons, even first time leveling, all disallow flying. Flying is for endgame, to get you from point A to point B in areas of the game that are irrelevant. Same exact implementation in FF6. You can't fly to the top of Kefka's tower just like how you can't fly your way to Garrosh.
    If Goku's power level increases at the same rate till the end of DBGT as it does till the end of the Frieza saga, as a SS4 Goku would have a PL of roughly 939 Quinoctogintillion. For reference that is a 260 digit number. A PL of 14,600 is required to destroy an earth sized planet. There are about 2 nonillion earths worth of mass in the universe. That means SS4 Goku can destroy the universe about 32 Octosexagintillion times over. There's a reason they made Goku a god at the end of GT.

  19. #39
    What about those Wildhammer dwarves? Windriders? Gnomish pilots? Dragonmaw rpers? Troll Batriders? Night elven Hippogrpyh riders? There are rpers who love to do those, and ground them would break their immersion.
    '"Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you."
    - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    yeah but how can a forest have flying islands? This might work if we go to some devasted Legion planet that's basically ripped apart. On Draenor? Not so much.
    SPIRES of Arak maybe?

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