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  1. #101
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Blithe View Post
    Even so, depending on how high our Critical Strike chance will be, it has a lot of value.
    No it doesn't. Crit chance is balanced around 100% crit damage/healing bonus. There's no extra crit chance in PVP.

    So crit is simply weak.

  2. #102
    Pit Lord Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    No it doesn't. Crit chance is balanced around 100% crit damage/healing bonus. There's no extra crit chance in PVP.

    So crit is simply weak.
    No, it's not 'simply' weak. It has defensive value, too. Something Mastery doesn't have.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Blithe View Post
    No, it's not 'simply' weak. It has defensive value, too. Something Mastery doesn't have.
    Mastery has, in a way, defensive benefits as well. More damage means the enemy has to play more defensively/less offensively, reducing the burden on your team indirectly (best defensive is a good offense). Also, AG and Stormelemental convert damage into heals, which includes the damage increase from mastery.

    You're correct though in that crit/multistrike and versatility are, well, more versatile than mastery. If we assume low uptime though, and therefor low msw count, I wonder if going for stats that benefit msw heals is going to make a difference. I guess it doesn't matter which stats you go for if blizz wont improve our tools.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  4. #104
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Blithe View Post
    No, it's not 'simply' weak. It has defensive value, too. Something Mastery doesn't have.
    Then take multistrike. Multistrike is better in any possible way. And don't forget versatility...

    So in that case, i'd even prefer haste. So in that case, it's even versatility > multistrike > haste > mastery > crit

    Crit is in any way possible our worst stat, even for PVE with 100% bonus.
    Last edited by mmoc4ec7d51a68; 2014-08-18 at 12:01 PM.

  5. #105
    I know this is a bit offtopic, but i cannot be arsed to create a new topic. How is Enhance PvE wise?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxhoundn View Post
    I know this is a bit offtopic, but i cannot be arsed to create a new topic. How is Enhance PvE wise?
    The things I heard as a no-beta person is that liquid magma is severely stronger than the other talents both as single target and multi target ability. According to the youtuber preach, enh aoe is apparently the best right now and on a unreal level when you use everything (CL, MT/FET, LM, spread FS, FN). Not unexpected, but a problematic design in that you rarely get to set all that up safe for raiding and even there only for aoe acks with lots of hp.

    LB is so strong number-wise right now (because of the msw perk), that UF becomes super strong as a talent. It also raises LB to highest prio, and dwarves our actual melee attacks. My guess is enh is pretty similar game-play-wise compared to wotlk times, with the flurry change and LL perk. EotE would play into that as well, though some people say EM performs better. GCD-locked would be another similarity to old times, another reason why to take EM over EotE.
    Frost Shock apparently is a waste of action bar space, because it doesn't work with EF (I supposed that gets fixed) and does pathetic damage, as it does not benefit from SS like ES did, or from UE:FT, as FS does. Again, likely fixed with the number pass(es).
    EB performs bad in comparisson to LB, so it's not worth taking even in pvp (not mentioning it not benefitting from Flurry or EotE, afaik, and additionally causing gcd-locks). WF having no gcd means even more msw procs for evne more lbs.

    So my noob guess is enh currently is a lb-machine with some SS/LL inbetween, and having to keep up UF:FT and UE:FT FS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  7. #107
    Deleted
    ^thats pretty much it, the only sad thing about it being that lightning bolts are pretty much filler spells for elemental shamans, and therefore you get the feeling that a filler spell more or less is enhancements strongest attacks.

    I would feel better if lava-lash did comparable damage so that you would have to juggle maximizing lava-lashes and lightning bolts to the same extent, but right now it's LB > ALL

    also melee damage still too high on damage breakdown :<

  8. #108
    Deleted
    Id like to add a post here for enhancer issues:

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13841994636

    Could anyone pls do this for me? Simply send me a PM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxhoundn View Post
    I know this is a bit offtopic, but i cannot be arsed to create a new topic. How is Enhance PvE wise?
    - AoE is super good and atm its loks like it will get nerf when aoe tuning will start

    - Single target is quite decent enh is one of best melee atm on beta

    - Enh Lighting bolt is one of hardest hiting ability , its quite weard ,personal i hope that they will nerf LB and byff LL SS

    - raid utility are almost non ( well almost every dps lost them so) off healing is much weaker then on live

    - almost no chose in talents there is one good build AS/UF/LM , hope tuning will fixe it

    - Ascendace is nerfed to the ground its more like 15 sec Hunter mode then offencive CD


    Overal if we talk about numbers enh is in realy good spot, play style feal realy fast with new Flurry and enhanced Flame schock perks.
    But like Omanley said enh is Lighting Bolt and Fire Novas spaming machines other abilitis are more like just filters

  10. #110
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Key Billington View Post
    Good day, everyone!

    Finally, got my hands on beta and went right to the Ashan battleground. Tried Enh shammy. Well, what can I say? It was and interesting experience. Can't tell much about 1vs1, but I did encounter feral druid, which was killing friendly shadowpriest. When I engaged battle, priest had 1/2 of HP and feral was having like 4/5 of hp pool. Started with flame shock, did used stun totem, while it was charging, I "hugged" druid by using unleash (from talents), ported totem to him. Totem did stun druid, I went behind his back (pvp reflex), and pressed my PvP/PvE rotation (LL, LL (with echo), SS, Frost Shock), did put my Searing totem and spewed lava (last talent). So, anyways, druid didn't use a trinket, waited for stun, and killed my friendly priest by ignoring me completely. And then, funny part appeared. He healed to 100%, and we had a fight for 20 sec and I had to pop-up wolfies to heal my hemorrhaging ass. I was unable to heal myself from maelstrom, well... I did like 1-2 times, but combat lasted like 2 minutes. So 2x5 stacks of maelstrom during 120+sec of combat is kind of... few. I was unable to hit him because of dodges. After popping ascendance, I did manage to nuke him a little bit, from 100% of HP to 92% +- couple of %.

    Anyways, I died and druid looted my token with 100% of his hp.

    So... that's my experience as enh shammy so far.
    Enh shaman sucks hard at 1v1 since TBC. This comes as no surprise.

  11. #111
    Deleted
    08/18/2014 05:37 PMPosted by Celestalon
    So, where are we at on class design? We’re to the point where we're pretty confident in each spec’s ability set, and so we're switching over to focusing on bug fixes, stability, and polish. Mechanical changes from now on will primarily be to solve tuning problems, or where there is a dire need of change for gameplay reasons. We've made a lot of changes for Warlords, and many are controversial. We'll be tweaking things in the future based on feedback and gameplay experiences.

    Oh well...

    I remember when someone from developers said:
    "We want classes be equal in some point". Equality it is then...

    Just to compare two hybrids:
    Enh Shaman vs Feral.

    In terms of control. Feral:

    1) 3 Instant roots (trees),
    2) Typhoon (or another AoE instant Root),
    3) Instant stun or (aoe Disorient) with 30/50 sec CD,
    4) stun through combo-points spending,
    5) Cyclone.
    6) Rake (start from it or go through restealth).

    Control enh shaman:

    1 totem, 45sec CD, Charging 5 sec, to relocate totem, have to waste talent. Totem can be killed (5hp), countered, you can leave totem aoe area.
    Hex. 1.7 sec cast. Target can move freely and go behind pillar if needed.

    Equality \m/

    It was a good run.

    Thanks everyone who participated in this thread!

  12. #112
    ok, i will be wait patch 7.0

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Vornos1 View Post
    Enh shaman sucks hard at 1v1 since TBC. This comes as no surprise.
    Actually wotlk Feral Spirits and mop Ascendence made enh dueling pretty viable. Once those band-aid abilities ran out though...

    And after both got nerfed, well...

    @Key: Basically what I've been preaching for years
    You could extend it towards mobility and soontm says survivability will suck as well come WoD. General utility is totem-style also. Shamans were a bland class for the longest time. The itsy-bitsy tiny things that were good/decent (tremor, purge, gw, wind shear) get nerfed again and again, and to get the message across once we have something really strong for an expansion they make sure it get's neutered (feral spirits, ascendence for enh). Double standards, ignorance and douche baggery have been blizzard's specialities when dealing with shamans for years, and they serve it to us on a regular basis.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2014-08-22 at 08:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  14. #114
    Okay I love enhance I have gotten 2k in 3s and 5s and rbgs and when I first played the beta I was incredibly upset at they way they were performing. I began stacking different stats to see if there was something I was missing as to why my damage was so poor.

    What I discover is that un like the live where mastery is the bomb and eb owns, it has shifted to crit and unleashed elements. When I stacked crit I became competitive. The amount of maelstrom you get from having 30 plus crit is well worth the mastery loss. You won't be hitting hard mainly 30k ish lighting bolts, but the rate at which you can cast them is pretty cool. Quite a few times I was able to storm strike and get a 5 stack almost instantly. This in addition to echo made for some very fun and aggressive gameplay.
    Last edited by thelizardking730; 2014-08-22 at 09:54 PM.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Vornos1 View Post
    Enh shaman sucks hard at 1v1 since TBC. This comes as no surprise.
    In Cata, enhance was easily one of the top 1v1 specs.

  16. #116
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbleem View Post
    In Cata, enhance was easily one of the top 1v1 specs.
    I was also performing pretty good during most parts of MOP.

    It's clearly the nerfs that are going to come with WOD which make us that weak in 1vs1. The problems will continue in 3vs3 and 5vs5 for sure, why shouldn't they?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by thelizardking730 View Post
    When I stacked crit I became competitive. The amount of maelstrom you get from having 30 plus crit is well worth the mastery loss. You won't be hitting hard mainly 30k ish lighting bolts, but the rate at which you can cast them is pretty cool. Quite a few times I was able to storm strike and get a 5 stack almost instantly. This in addition to echo made for some very fun and aggressive gameplay.
    Surely you mean haste? Crit does not affect the rate at which you gather msw. Also crit is very weak in pvp come WoD. I think even if they doubled the crit gained from crit rating in pvp, to counter the halfed damage bonus, I dont think crit would be popular.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Surely you mean haste? Crit does not affect the rate at which you gather msw. Also crit is very weak in pvp come WoD. I think even if they doubled the crit gained from crit rating in pvp, to counter the halfed damage bonus, I dont think crit would be popular.
    I meant crit, haste is garbage for enhance in pvp look at all 2500 plus enhance, it goes mastery/crit. And I did do tests stacking haste it was garbage. I can post some meters from skada next time I get on beta. And if you think I'm wrong link something proving it, words don't mean much with out data. So after saying that, I will provide data after extensive testing in pvp not pve because I could care less about it in a pvp thread. Also what's your highest current pvp rating? Because if your anything less then 2k your opinion isn't really valid.
    Last edited by thelizardking730; 2014-08-24 at 07:39 PM.

  19. #119
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by thelizardking730 View Post
    I meant crit, haste is garbage for enhance in pvp look at all 2500 plus enhance, it goes mastery/crit. And I did do tests stacking haste it was garbage. I can post some meters from skada next time I get on beta. And if you think I'm wrong link something proving it, words don't mean much with out data. So after saying that, I will provide data after extensive testing in pvp not pve because I could care less about it in a pvp thread. Also what's your highest current pvp rating? Because if your anything less then 2k your opinion isn't really valid.
    Yeah you know, crit is stronger on live because they have 100% crit bonus and flurry procs. As EB is a hardhitter, everything they try to do is maximize burst.

    For WOD they nerfed crit by 50% and removed flurry, nobody would take crit. MS is better in every aspect of the game, Versatility is better than crit in every possible way + gives you defense bonus.

    Crit is just totally underwhelming now. And don't forget, burst is a lot weaker on live, we can't burst targets down anymore unless the enemy is totally stupid. We will have to talk about completely new gameplay. Maximizing EB+Asc damage won't be that important anymore.
    Last edited by mmoc4ec7d51a68; 2014-08-24 at 09:28 PM.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by thelizardking730 View Post
    I meant crit, haste is garbage for enhance in pvp look at all 2500 plus enhance, it goes mastery/crit. And I did do tests stacking haste it was garbage. I can post some meters from skada next time I get on beta. And if you think I'm wrong link something proving it, words don't mean much with out data. So after saying that, I will provide data after extensive testing in pvp not pve because I could care less about it in a pvp thread. Also what's your highest current pvp rating? Because if your anything less then 2k your opinion isn't really valid.
    1) We're talking about WoD, not MoP.
    2) They go mastery/crit to maximise Storm and Elemental Blast burst. Both are severely weaker on beta atm though, Ascendence got neutered.
    3) How are you testing wether or not haste will be good in pvp? Hitting a dummy wont help, as you'd have to simulate a scenario in which the target runs, kites, and ccs you, and you not having much uptime.
    4) I'm not saying haste will be good in WoD beta. It is a stat that particularly benefits from lots of uptime, which we wont have much, so yeah, unlikely.
    5) You stated though that you increased your msw stacks with crit
    The amount of maelstrom you get from having 30 plus crit is well worth the mastery loss
    , which is not possible, as msw is a ppm increased by haste, hence my guess that you're actually talking about haste, but acidently writing crit.
    6) DPS Meters are something to simulate pve standstill scenarios, worthless for emulating pvp benefits.
    7) I am currently not playing. My last pvp rating when I had a team for 3s was 2170 or something. I'd like to think though that my opinion does matter in any case (not that I made any definite statements or claims, that was your misinterpretation). I was merely confused by your linking of crit => more msw procs.
    8) Crits in pvp will only deal +50% damage, instead of +100%, so crit's value is essentially halfed. As Klatar explained, MS will be the superior crit (easily comparable). Dunno about Versatility, but given that stats are balanced around pve, crit being halfed in pvp is like to make it the weakest stat.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2014-08-24 at 09:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

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