The Hero Always Wins

[Florena]

the sc2 mission in utter darkness comes to mind. Defending against impossible odds for a certain leght of time against something that attacks harder and harder and harder. (or grows in power more and more.
Whould be an excellent way of having a hardmode bonus loot aswell. The longer you can stand your ground the better the reward

the last wc3 campagin against archimonde was a pretty good example aswell of something that eventually beats you. but as longa s you held it off until the trap was ready youd won

There's a sharp distinction between 'hold out for X amount of time and you win' and 'you're going to lose it's just a matter of when.' WoW actually does have some of the former, like the archive fight in Halls of Stone.

[Deleted]

Lol this thread looks like a confidential CIA document.

In a lot of stories it's not just win or lose. There's often a clear story goal, but achieving that sometimes has great sacrifice.

In terms of MMOs I like the whole premise of LK 1 shotting us to be saved by Tirion. It's probably the closest you'll get to a defeat in an MMO.

There are a few other pretty okay "micro losses" too. Like uhhh... Is it Draktharon keep? In wrath, where you do all those quests for that troll in the cage in uhh... the hills with the bears in. And then like, you help him do some stuff in draktharon and it turns out you've just massacred all the trolls there so TLK can raise them all and he can ascend to become a general. Who you then have to kill in another quest but whatever.

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Actually this reminds me - way back in Grade 5 our teacher let us play with one of the school computers - and me and some of the other nerds decided to program games. My game was about a king leading his armies - and you made choices about how to command them (it was really closer to a choose your own adventure).

If you won the game, you were assembling before the enemy castle - knowing you had obliterated his forces in previous battles - and expecting a surrender or futile (for your enemy) seige (since you also could take control of his crops, and potentially divert the underground river upstream of his castle so his wells would dry up). Victory seemed assured, then just before the credits roll - a dragon (in text and shitty pixel pictures) shows up and burns your army down in the night - and the enemy castle.

The unwritten moral of the story was - Dragons win, Humans lose Up until that point, there had been no mention that dragons even existed - and the only mythological creature was a unicorn your men report seeing on the outskirts of a dark forest (do you pursue it into the woods?)

Dragonus Ex Machina

More games would be considerably better with dragons.

I always felt like that was what was missing from the mass effect series, you know? Like I bet you £20 the franchise would have sold even better if you got to watch a dragon fight a reaper.

[breadisfunny]

There are a few other pretty okay "micro losses" too. Like uhhh... Is it Draktharon keep? In wrath, where you do all those quests for that troll in the cage in uhh... the hills with the bears in. And then like, you help him do some stuff in draktharon and it turns out you've just massacred all the trolls there so TLK can raise them all and he can ascend to become a general. Who you then have to kill in another quest but whatever.

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More games would be considerably better with dragons.

I always felt like that was what was missing from the mass effect series, you know? Like I bet you £20 the franchise would have sold even better if you got to watch a dragon fight a reaper.

it would have been even better if it had a decent ending but artistic integreity guys. look at how dark and edgy this story is.

[Deleted]

it would have been even better if it had a decent ending but artistic integreity guys. look at how dark and edgy this story is.

Uhh, hello? DRAGONS.

[Yvaelle]

More games would be considerably better with dragons.

I always felt like that was what was missing from the mass effect series, you know? Like I bet you £20 the franchise would have sold even better if you got to watch a dragon fight a reaper.

As someone starting up a video game company, I will make a note of this

Dragons in every game (Easter Eggs in universes where they have no place)!

I totally agree though, if the end of ME3 was just like - Bahamut ZERO (his name is capitalized) shows up out of nowhere and orbitally bombards a reaper - then immediately fade to black/credits - that would have been amazing

Plus, ME4 could then have been about how a race of super awesome extraterrestrial robo-dragons show up to kill off the reapers - that game would be amazeballs!

[Deleted]

As someone starting up a video game company, I will make a note of this

Dragons in every game (Easter Eggs in universes where they have no place)!

I totally agree though, if the end of ME3 was just like - Bahamut ZERO (his name is capitalized) shows up out of nowhere and orbitally bombards a reaper - then immediately fade to black/credits - that would have been amazing

Plus, ME4 could then have been about how a race of super awesome extraterrestrial robo-dragons show up to kill off the reapers - that game would be amazeballs!

I had a dream once where I was living at home again and I was desperate for a pet cat so I begged my parents (I was like 10 years old again for some reason) to get one, and they were like "okay okay" so they went out to the cat shelter and came back with one of those cat crate things, and I opened it up and Bahamut flew out and ate me. Like, not a cat crate sized bahamut, like a full sized gigantic fucking bahamut. Flew out of a tiny little cat crate. Dreams are weird as fuck.

[Yvaelle]

Dreams are weird as fuck.

And awesome. Because that is an awesome dream! ^^

[Socialhealer]

lich king is as close as it gets in WoW, he won but there has to be some way to win otherwise blizzard have to stop making xpacs it's just not logical in most games to have to fight your way to the end to just lose. you might as well just lose at the start lol.

[Pisholina]

Well ,let's see. Tempest Keep wasn't a win because we failed to kill Kael'Thas.
Throne of the Tides was a big bucket of fail because the Naga still took Ozumat.
Deathwing broke the bloody world.
In Thousand Needles, you rescue Magatha Grimtotem from the Twilight's Hammer.
In Westfall, you witness the Defias Brotherhood coming back together and Hope betraying the Alliance.
In Drak'tharon Keep, we kill a Prophet of the Drakkari just so the Lich King could have an easier time conquering Zul'Drak.
At the Wrathgate, we had losses all around. Apothecary Society lost it's credit, a lot of Horde and Alliance soldiers killed, Forsaken killed when Varimathras occupied Undercity.

That's a couple of losses I can think of from the top of my head. They have to result in a win for the players at some point because there is no point in playing in a battle we know we can't win.

[Deleted]

Ohhhh that was a "what if" post. Sorry! I missed that. The word "if" would have helped

Yeah, I did gone made a bad grammars.

Lol this thread looks like a confidential CIA document.

Essential security measures - if terrorists got hold of this thread and had their game endings spoiled, their nerd rage would be unstoppable.

[Powerogue]

I'm fine with games that make you work harder towards winning, as you feel more satisfied in the ending after you've died god knows how many times to earn it.

It's fine for the hero to lose, but I think especially in video games as you're roleplaying as the hero (most of the time) you want to win in the end. That is the cheese at the end of the maze, the feeling of accomplishing something in this fictional world.

[Nirawen]

I had a dream once where I was living at home again and I was desperate for a pet cat so I begged my parents (I was like 10 years old again for some reason) to get one, and they were like "okay okay" so they went out to the cat shelter and came back with one of those cat crate things, and I opened it up and Bahamut flew out and ate me. Like, not a cat crate sized bahamut, like a full sized gigantic fucking bahamut. Flew out of a tiny little cat crate. Dreams are weird as fuck.

I used to have a recurring dream as a young child that there was a secret doorway behind the drawers in my bedroom that led to a stone spiral staircase with a dragon at the top. I'd always wake up upon meeting the dragon.

Back to the topic, some of my favourite books and games have involved the hero either losing or being tricked at the end.

[Deleted]

That's a couple of losses I can think of from the top of my head. They have to result in a win for the players at some point because there is no point in playing in a battle we know we can't win.

I feel like all quest who involve peace attempt is always a lousing end. Save the dwarf kings daughter, no use, save Bolvar Fordragon, no use, join force agents LK, battel of undercity, Grommash no use, save Anduin, no use. Save Thrall, no use.

All interaction who involve the opponent fraction who not involve killing them is a no win because in the end all will be reset to ensure the war continue.

Green Jesus and crucified as the LK Jesus cant stop the war, then nobody can...

[-aiko-]

Losing every now and then is a good thing. FF6 had a perfect balance. You lose and the world gets fucked over, so it's up to you to regroup and fix it.

[greeeed]

actually there is many game where villain win
it's not hero always win anymore but MC always win

(in many game MC can be either hero or villain)

[CasCrow]

Heroes losing is what makes it worth watching. It's just too boring knowing for a fact somehow they're going to come out on top. Power of friendship bs.

[dextersmith]

Imagine if you're winning in a boss fight, your toon dies in a spontaneous cutscene and your account gets deleted.

[Combatbutler]

I'm not saying his death was surprising. I'm saying they should have done it in a way that wasn't an ass pull. There's no reason at all why Shepard and the gang couldn't have shot Kai Leng into fine pink mist during that exchange. They even have a side view, the perfect angle for taking out Kai Leng without hitting Thane. And Thane's illness only made him physically frail. His mind was as sharp as ever, but for no real reason he abandoned his tried and true assassination technique to go in guns blazing like an action movie hero.

Give me one logical reason why Thane didn't walk up to Kai Leng, pull out his knife, and sever his spine. Keep in mind Thane was already invisible and undetected, and he was clearly expecting a fight, as he had the presence of mind to arm himself with a pistol beforehand.

Also, give me one logical reason why Shep and crew couldn't paste Kai Leng after he knocked Thane away.

Edit: Rewatched the scene, it's been a while, so I got a few details wrong. It's actually worse than I remember lol. Thane goes in and puts his gun to Kai Leng's face. He successfully sneaks up on him, but instead of neutralizing the threat he does the most idiotic thing possible and reveals himself, taking his ranged weapon into melee. It was also Thane that knocked Kai Leng down, not the other way around. In fact, he knocked him on his ass, and then takes the time to reload his fucking gun, and the whole time Shepard and crew do NOTHING. Kai Leng is on his butt, in full line of fire, and they decide not to shoot his face off for no reason. Then Thane charges at the fucker with a sword, shooting his gun the whole way, then he throws his gun and tries to jump kick the space ninja in the face. Then he gets stabbed. Dumb as shit.

To be honest that Thane was able to sneak up on Kai leng here was the real bullshit to be honest Thane ran through half the citadel and had problems breathing, there is no way he could have been all that stealthy, Kai should have heard him, immediately turning around and shooting him instantly with shep and co opening fire from above and driving Kai leng away, thus saving the councilor, Thane purpose was nothing more than a mere distraction at this point, the problem is they wanted to look him badass. Thane performed skills, he shouldn't have had anymore, at that point he should have been nothing more but cannon fodder.

[Deleted]

To be honest that Thane was able to sneak up on Kai leng here was the real bullshit to be honest Thane ran through half the citadel and had problems breathing, there is no way he could have been all that stealthy, Kai should have heard him, immediately turning around and shooting him instantly with shep and co opening fire from above and driving Kai leng away, thus saving the councilor, Thane purpose was nothing more than a mere distraction at this point, the problem is they wanted to look him badass. Thane performed skills, he shouldn't have had anymore, at that point he should have been nothing more but cannon fodder.

Without knowing anything about the disease or drell physiology, it's impossible to say really. It could be that drell only take a breath once every couple of minutes, like a whale or something, and have much more efficient lungs, and his are just a bit worse. bad enough for it to kill him eventually, but still good enough to hold your breath and sneak up. There's just no way to know.

[Combatbutler]

Without knowing anything about the disease or drell physiology, it's impossible to say really. It could be that drell only take a breath once every couple of minutes, like a whale or something, and have much more efficient lungs, and his are just a bit worse. bad enough for it to kill him eventually, but still good enough to hold your breath and sneak up. There's just no way to know.

The disease makes it hard for his blood to take in oxygen, he is in constant pain because of this implying he is slowly suffocating, even though he takes in Oxygen and he himself says he is no longer fit to serve with sheppard. So running around all over the citadel and fighting against cerberus pushing his body way beyond his limits and then he should be able to sneak up on a highly skilled assassin? This really does not make sense here, unless bioware wanted to give him a fighting scene with Kai leng, to make him look cool.