When will World of Warcraft become World of Warcraft again? the spark is long lost.

[Deng]

i've seen drakedog crit 9k... then they nerfed the zul gurub trinket... but 1v1 at level 60 there was no one shotting or two shotting :3

PoM-> Pyro with trinkets.

[ThunderTaco]

Indeed? You've been called out by at least a dozen Vanilla players that I've seen and I haven't even spent much time in this thread. They challenged you fact for fact and those were normally the posts you chose not to reply to, conveniently.

I'm still wondering what the goal is, here.

Yeah, when he replies to me, he conveniently ignores half my post, so I stopped trying to convince him.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes let`s please. They`re known as roles. You know as in Role Playing Games, which is what the RPG at the end of MMORPG stands for. Remove that and there`s no RPG, to go with the fact that WoW is barely massive anymore, and doesn`t invite traditional multiplayer either, and you`ll have gotten rid of most the letters in the genre WoW still formally describes itself as. For your edification MMORPG = Massively multiplayer online role playing game. In the spirit of truth in labeling WoW should change its designation to a MOCG, or Massively online casual game. And you could even lose the "massively" and the "game" (Everything is handed out, how can it be a game in the traditional sense?), making it an OC.
All I can say is that I`m never gonna play any of the games you design.

I think you misunderstood my point. I don't have a problem with Blizzard deciding to force Shamans/Priests/Paladins/Whatever into healers, they should just have put a message when selecting your class "This is a healer class, nothing else". But it's not what happened, you could effectively play a DPS spec as Shaman, but no one would want to raid with you, because DPS Shamans were terrible compared to mages/rogues/warlocks/hunters. Because the specs weren't balanced. This a design flaw. Nowadays Shamans have two viable DPS specs and aren't forced to play heal to see the hardest content.

And what about the one-two button specs ? I remember spamming shadowbolt on my warlock for hours, and now I see people complaining about the "dumbing down", makes me smile.

[Bentusi]

I think you misunderstood my point. I don't have a problem with Blizzard deciding to force Shamans/Priests/Paladins/Whatever into healers, they should just have put a message when selecting your class "This is a healer class, nothing else". But it's not what happened, you could effectively play a DPS spec as Shaman, but no one would want to raid with you, because DPS Shamans were terrible compared to mages/rogues/warlocks/hunters. Because the specs weren't balanced. This a design flaw. Nowadays Shamans have two viable DPS specs and aren't forced to play heal to see the hardest content.

And what about the one-two button specs ? I remember spamming shadowbolt on my warlock for hours, and now I see people complaining about the "dumbing down", makes me smile.

Well, the problem with this is that when you had four dps specialists they obviously needed to be better at dps than hybrids. Anything else is what is bad game design. And indeed, after years of moaning by people who failed to understand this basic concept, hybrids were suddenly doing just as much dps as dps "specialists". Even more in some cases. The last "raid" (This was in Cataclysm and can hardly be called a raid) I did, had two shadow priests, one balance druid, a retri paladin and an elemental shammy (Me.) topping the dps meters. Even though I was doing well enough personally I truly hated this development, and it was one of the main reasons I quit, along with the pointless gear welfare. You just cannot have healing and tanking classes topping dps when they don`t even need to pay for a respec, because it makes the four dps classes pointless. And that was always the big problem with these demands for dps equalization. And to be even more specific; hunters and warlocks were supposed to have slightly lower dps than mages and rogues because they had pets and therefore more survivability. And all this was very good game design. Unless I`ve gone senile, the ratio was mage/rogue 100, hunter/warlock 90, two role hybrids 75 and three role hybrids 60. Any sane person who sits down to design an MMORPG will probably use something very close to this model, which was just totally standard MMORPG stuff at the time. And obviously that`s why Blizzard did this also, because believe it or not they actually had sane people working there at one point.

And again, it has to do with roles, and most people knew about this and rolled priests if they wanted to heal and warlocks if they wanted to dps. There was no problem, except in the minds of people who truly do not understand anything about what makes games good or not. Hybrids had dps specs to help them level and that was all they were for. In most cases you could use them to dps five mans just fine as well, and the only thing you couldn`t use them for was end game raiding. "Oh what a huge scandal and moan and whine endlessly until they buff my dps so I can raid with any spec whatsoever!"
For intelligent people, if you didn`t know this and rolled the wrong class, then by golly you just rerolled like everybody else. You certainly didn`t demand that Blizzard destroy the game because you`re dumb enough to roll a healer when you wanted to dps. So to me, every change Blizzard made in this area made the game progressively worse. And it includes things like giving the same buffs to multiple classes, giving self heals to every class etc. The distinct classes WoW set out with are all gone, and what remains is a mush of indistinct, messy solo characters. And this was what the morons wanted because it was too much work to team up with others and work together to achieve things. And this is what they got, and why the average age and IQ of the WoW player base has been cut basically in half. And so has the number of subs, for those who believe the majority is always right. And the mentality has gone down the toilet with it.

As for 2 button specs this is a totally different discussion and no they were not very fun to play. But all that can be fixed, and was fixed, without removing the healer/tank/dps dynamic and class roles like Blizzard did.

[Vash The Stampede]

#1 When Blizzard reduces monthly fee.
#2 When realms no longer have any real meaning. No limit on who you can raid and what guild to join.
#3 No longer lock players to raids. While we're at it, no more raid lock outs.

These things will bring WoW to it's former glory.

[Steelangel]

When I see threads like this I wonder why Wildstar isn't more populated. It's all the Vanilla WoW glory.. in space.

Oh wait.. 40 man raids and attunements are actually hard and time consuming and NOONE WANTS TO DO THEM ANYMORE.

[Deleted]

When I see threads like this I wonder why Wildstar isn't more populated. It's all the Vanilla WoW glory.. in space.

Oh wait.. 40 man raids and attunements are actually hard and time consuming and NOONE WANTS TO DO THEM ANYMORE.

I stopped Wildstar because i dont like sci-fi theme and i didnt like how everything u cast is AOE and there are other things that made me just not care about the game. MMORPG have to be time consuming and it should go harder and harder the more you progres. It keeps the game interesting and the goal somewhere that you are trying to reach and when you get more towards to your goal. It feels something. In wow you dont get any feelings of the game. "oh i got this, oh i did this, well who cares". The reason why i quitted Wildstar has NOTHING to do with vanilla. So your statement that wow would fail if it went back to vanilla/BC times is wrong on my part.

[Deleted]

When I see threads like this I wonder why Wildstar isn't more populated. It's all the Vanilla WoW glory.. in space.

Oh wait.. 40 man raids and attunements are actually hard and time consuming and NOONE WANTS TO DO THEM ANYMORE.

This must be a joke? Wildstar will turn great eventually, I love wildstar... Except for that it's not medieval... I font like fancy lasers and weird choppers and such... I want warriors and rogues, I want priests...

Wildstar is just too futuristic for my kind, will definitely try it again some time soon

[ThunderTaco]

Well, the problem with this is that when you had four dps specialists they obviously needed to be better at dps than hybrids. Anything else is what is bad game design. And indeed, after years of moaning by people who failed to understand this basic concept, hybrids were suddenly doing just as much dps as dps "specialists". Even more in some cases. The last "raid" (This was in Cataclysm and can hardly be called a raid) I did, had two shadow priests, one balance druid, a retri paladin and an elemental shammy (Me.) topping the dps meters. Even though I was doing well enough personally I truly hated this development, and it was one of the main reasons I quit, along with the pointless gear welfare. You just cannot have healing and tanking classes topping dps when they don`t even need to pay for a respec, because it makes the four dps classes pointless. And that was always the big problem with these demands for dps equalization. And to be even more specific; hunters and warlocks were supposed to have slightly lower dps than mages and rogues because they had pets and therefore more survivability. And all this was very good game design. Unless I`ve gone senile, the ratio was mage/rogue 100, hunter/warlock 90, two role hybrids 75 and three role hybrids 60. Any sane person who sits down to design an MMORPG will probably use something very close to this model, which was just totally standard MMORPG stuff at the time. And obviously that`s why Blizzard did this also, because believe it or not they actually had sane people working there at one point.

And again, it has to do with roles, and most people knew about this and rolled priests if they wanted to heal and warlocks if they wanted to dps. There was no problem, except in the minds of people who truly do not understand anything about what makes games good or not. Hybrids had dps specs to help them level and that was all they were for. In most cases you could use them to dps five mans just fine as well, and the only thing you couldn`t use them for was end game raiding. "Oh what a huge scandal and moan and whine endlessly until they buff my dps so I can raid with any spec whatsoever!"
For intelligent people, if you didn`t know this and rolled the wrong class, then by golly you just rerolled like everybody else. You certainly didn`t demand that Blizzard destroy the game because you`re dumb enough to roll a healer when you wanted to dps. So to me, every change Blizzard made in this area made the game progressively worse. And it includes things like giving the same buffs to multiple classes, giving self heals to every class etc. The distinct classes WoW set out with are all gone, and what remains is a mush of indistinct, messy solo characters. And this was what the morons wanted because it was too much work to team up with others and work together to achieve things. And this is what they got, and why the average age and IQ of the WoW player base has been cut basically in half. And so has the number of subs, for those who believe the majority is always right. And the mentality has gone down the toilet with it.

As for 2 button specs this is a totally different discussion and no they were not very fun to play. But all that can be fixed, and was fixed, without removing the healer/tank/dps dynamic and class roles like Blizzard did.

Or, you could just remove the ability to heal for hybrids if they choose a DPS spec, that way they can be tuned to have the same DPS as pure DPS classes but they have the option to respec into healing (and lose the ability to DPS effectively, let's say enough for questing and farming a bit) if they want to and pure DPS specs can respec to another gameplay but still have to DPS.

If you go by "Hybrids should have X% of the DPS of a pure class" you will have to stack pure DPS classes for raids with some boss with low raid damage but high DPS requirements and you will have to stack hybrids for raids with high raid damage but low DPS requirements and only if there is high raid damage and high DPS requirement you will have to find a good balance.

This would encourage people to reroll so that their group can face any situation, this is what guilds did for WotlK and Cata (25 warlocks for the soulstones, the ferals for Heroic Nefarian, the mages/rogues for Spine, etc etc) and Blizzard clearly stated that they prefer the philosophy "Bring the player, not the class".

I agree with this philosophy, maybe it goes a little against the RPG, but I like it, it'd rather player that with my friends than play a "true RPG" with random people because my friends didn't chose the right class from the start.

[Deleted]

Yeah, when he replies to me, he conveniently ignores half my post, so I stopped trying to convince him.

- - - Updated - - -



I think you misunderstood my point. I don't have a problem with Blizzard deciding to force Shamans/Priests/Paladins/Whatever into healers, they should just have put a message when selecting your class "This is a healer class, nothing else". But it's not what happened, you could effectively play a DPS spec as Shaman, but no one would want to raid with you, because DPS Shamans were terrible compared to mages/rogues/warlocks/hunters. Because the specs weren't balanced. This a design flaw. Nowadays Shamans have two viable DPS specs and aren't forced to play heal to see the hardest content.

And what about the one-two button specs ? I remember spamming shadowbolt on my warlock for hours, and now I see people complaining about the "dumbing down", makes me smile.

Primo, Enhancement Shaman of Darksorrow who had the hand of Ragnaros... > any dps
The windfury was sick as fuck... I'm telling you

There was a lot of shadowpriest and fury warriors too, I knew a good balance druid... The reason why druids were playing healers or priest playing healers is simply because: Makes don't wanna trade gear with priests, hunters shouldn't have to fight over gear with a shaman and druids shouldn't have to fight over gear with a rogue... However... There was plenty of people on my realm playing shadow, feral, elemental an such...

[ThunderTaco]

Primo, Enhancement Shaman of Darksorrow who had the hand of Ragnaros... > any dps
The windsurf was sick as fuck... I'm telling you

There was a lot of shadowpriest and fury warriors too, I knew a good balance druid... The reason why druids were playing healers or priest playing healers is simply because: Makes don't wanna trade gear with priests, hunters shouldn't have to fight over gear with a shaman and druids shouldn't have to fight over gear with a rogue... However... There was plenty of people on my realm playing shadow, feral, elemental an such...

Yes, that was sick in PvP with windfury combos, but, in PvE I don't think it was better than a fury warrior, mage or rogue. I'm pretty sure Shamans ran out of mana or were forced to use less mana consming spells. And yes they were exceptionnal people playing hybrids that perform very well, but that does not mean that the game was balanced or well designed. It just meant that with superior skill and gear you could beat a better class.

I'm pretty sure the game is more balanced now (in term of classes) than vanilla, and that makes it, in my opinion, a better designed game.

[Deleted]

Yes, that was sick in PvP with windfury combos, but, in PvE I don't think it was better than a fury warrior, mage or rogue. I'm pretty sure Shamans ran out of mana or were forced to use less mana consming spells. And yes they were exceptionnal people playing hybrids that perform very well, but that does not mean that the game was balanced or well designed. It just meant that with superior skill and gear you could beat a better class.

I'm pretty sure the game is more balanced now (in term of classes) than vanilla, and that makes it, in my opinion, a better designed game.

It is indeed more balanced... No doubt... Bu t i want the RPG and community back, I never said that balancing was bad or anything, it's very good now and new spells are fun... But crossrealm fuked up a lotion things for me tbh I can't have friends like before or anything no pride either, cuz people look at my legendary and think: lol I have that too :P and blah blah

[josykay]

It is indeed more balanced... No doubt... Bu t i want the RPG and community back, I never said that balancing was bad or anything, it's very good now and new spells are fun... But crossrealm fuked up a lotion things for me tbh I can't have friends like before or anything no pride either, cuz people look at my legendary and think: lol I have that too :P and blah blah

I think, It was a reasonable decission, go give everybody the chance for the legendary item. You can argue, if it should be obtainable via LFR, but let's face it: The old way of legendaries created a extremly toxic community. first of all people playing an other class, which does not get the legendary were angry, because they were skipped over. Then the players, who may get a legendary, but were not chosen by the guild might have felt screwed over, some even decided to destroy the guild for revenge... And in the end we got those... those scumbacks who would do everything for getting their legendary items, betraying their guild, causing trouble, backstabbing.. No thanks!

[Deleted]

I think, It was a reasonable decission, go give everybody the chance for the legendary item. You can argue, if it should be obtainable via LFR, but let's face it: The old way of legendaries created a extremly toxic community.

No it was not reasonable decission to give it to everybody. They didnt DESERVE it. Mby if it was epic it would be a good idea to give players cause it actualy makes them do something for their first epic. I dont even understand why blizzard changed the items rarity like this..get EPICS free from the fucking ground. Like WHY?

Do you actualy think the community was more toxic in the old days than now?
I tell you how the community got EXTREMELY toxic. LFR, LFD, crossrealms.

[josykay]

No it was not reasonable decission to give it to everybody. They didnt DESERVE it.

Why does one Player of Guild X deserve it more, than an other one, Who has done the same shit?

I dont even understand why blizzard changed the items rarity like this..get EPICS free from the fucking ground. Like WHY?

This is, why they introduced the reputation farming again. But the same players who were complaining about "Free Äpix" were omplaining again, since they had to do those evil stupid daily quests.

So people want to "earn" their epics, but do not want, to actually do something for it. This is plain retarded.

I honestly don't get it:
During Classic it was fine, doing repeatable quests, and grinding reputation for getting Epics. Now it is "bad and boring"?
During Classic some of the best epics (At least until AQ and Nax launched) were craftable, and pretty cheap... Und so were the profession sets of the BC. During BC the token system was introduced, giving players the easy opportunity to just buy epics (Really good epics, at Tier 5 level or even higher when SWP was released), and people say, they want the BC days back, when you had to "earn" your epics?
"Epics were Epics" is a myth. Nothing less. Hell even most Classic Epics until (late) BWL were even worse than high dungeon blues. This does not sound "epic" to me.

Do you actualy think the community was more toxic in the old days than now?
I tell you how the community got EXTREMELY toxic. LFR, LFD, crossrealms.

The only difference is, that you now meet the scum from other servers. Community didn't get more toxic, you just now have to deal with those Idiots from Aegwynn EU and so on.^^ Before that, every server hat it's very own idiots. I would rather have an unknown idiot flaming me, instead of a "friend" backstabbing me for some pixels.

[Deleted]

I did AV in 2008, and we did summon the tree and the elemental.

[Deleted]

Why does one Player of Guild X deserve it more, than an other one, Who has done the same shit?



This is, why they introduced the reputation farming again. But the same players who were complaining about "Free Äpix" were omplaining again, since they had to do those evil stupid daily quests.

So people want to "earn" their epics, but do not want, to actually do something for it. This is plain retarded.

I honestly don't get it:
During Classic it was fine, doing repeatable quests, and grinding reputation for getting Epics. Now it is "bad and boring"?
During Classic some of the best epics (At least until AQ and Nax launched) were craftable, and pretty cheap... Und so were the profession sets of the BC. During BC the token system was introduced, giving players the easy opportunity to just buy epics (Really good epics, at Tier 5 level or even higher when SWP was released), and people say, they want the BC days back, when you had to "earn" your epics?
"Epics were Epics" is a myth. Nothing less. Hell even most Classic Epics until (late) BWL were even worse than high dungeon blues. This does not sound "epic" to me.

I ment giving the legendary to EVERY1. Was not talking about Raiders.

So its better to let ppl grab epics from the ground? thats fucking epic.

[josykay]

I ment giving the legendary to EVERY1. Was not talking about Raiders.

Thats why I said, that you can argue, if the cloak should be obtainable via LFR or not.

So its better to let ppl grab epics from the ground? thats fucking epic.

That's the problem: You can not have both. You can not have, to "earn your epics" without doing stuff, you might feel uncomfortable, like the early MOP epics have proven. IMO the first MOP Point/ Repsystem was pretty good. The reputation grind was not as painful like during Classic or BC, but you were not able, to get the items just by playing like you did during WotLK and Cata. IMO the early MOP system was pretty good.
However they should reduce the Itemlevel you can get in one tier. Now we have LFR, Flex, Normal, Warforged, HC and HC Warforged, and updates of up to 16. One raid tier should never have 61 itemlevel for doing essentially the same shit. If you now look at the entire expension epics startet at 470. Now we crossed 616! We got 146 item levels from the first to the highest epic item level in just one expension! That's far to high! Not to mention the fact, that MOP started at item level 372! Giving MOP the record of 242 item levels.

Classic: 62 up to 90= 38 Epic Item levels.
BC: 110 up to 164= 54 Epic Item Levels.
WotLK: 200 up to 284= 84 Epic Item Levels
Cata: 352 up to 416 = 64 Epic Item Levels

[ThunderTaco]

It is indeed more balanced... No doubt... Bu t i want the RPG and community back, I never said that balancing was bad or anything, it's very good now and new spells are fun... But crossrealm fuked up a lotion things for me tbh I can't have friends like before or anything no pride either, cuz people look at my legendary and think: lol I have that too :P and blah blah

I agree that cross realm zones aren't flawsless, for example when someone attacks me, realizes he is losing and just leaves the group so he leaves my realm, great...
Or the fact that I can't camp rares or stuff like that easily.

But on the other hand, it allows me to play with friends on other realms, or to join raids with my alts easily on OpenRaid, and I love raiding. That's why I think the CR technology a plus in the end.

[Sicarius87]

too fucking long ; barely read.

From what I did read though, the first two comments after the OP nailed it. The game cant stay the same forever. It has to evolve otherwise it would have would up like every other "wow killer" out there. Youre just trying to justify reasons for you attempting to walk away from it all but still cant.

[Bentusi]

Or, you could just remove the ability to heal for hybrids if they choose a DPS spec, that way they can be tuned to have the same DPS as pure DPS classes but they have the option to respec into healing (and lose the ability to DPS effectively, let's say enough for questing and farming a bit) if they want to and pure DPS specs can respec to another gameplay but still have to DPS.

If you go by "Hybrids should have X% of the DPS of a pure class" you will have to stack pure DPS classes for raids with some boss with low raid damage but high DPS requirements and you will have to stack hybrids for raids with high raid damage but low DPS requirements and only if there is high raid damage and high DPS requirement you will have to find a good balance.

This would encourage people to reroll so that their group can face any situation, this is what guilds did for WotlK and Cata (25 warlocks for the soulstones, the ferals for Heroic Nefarian, the mages/rogues for Spine, etc etc) and Blizzard clearly stated that they prefer the philosophy "Bring the player, not the class".

I agree with this philosophy, maybe it goes a little against the RPG, but I like it, it'd rather player that with my friends than play a "true RPG" with random people because my friends didn't chose the right class from the start.

As long as they stop calling it an RPG I agree that this might work. The real solution to my mind is to equip every class and spec with unique buffs and utilities, which will be required or beneficial in many raids, if not all of them. As long as no particular class is excluded entirely this would work alright, and keep the RPG elements the game depended on. There isn`t a single RPG I have ever played where you would ever start out by thinking "I want to do loads and loads of dps. I know, I`ll roll a priest!". I mean, it`s brain dead. But in WoW that is now how the game has turned out, and it`s the main reason for the exodus of players and why we`re having this discussion. It`s not because I`m burned out or living in the past or because you`re stupid and a fan boy. It`s because the game has objectively change from one genre to another.

As for easy mode, you are , as usual, pretending that raids are the game. Sure, there were fights that were easy in Vanilla, and particularly for ranged dps. But most of the time things could be fairly unforgiving for both healers and tanks, and a lot more so than after TBC. Chromaggus is a good example. One slight prehealing mistake from a healer and the tank died instantly so you wiped. If anything like that had been introduced today there would be whining loud enough to wake the dead, from all the entitled slackers who have gotten used to WoW kiddie mode. Yes, kiddie mode. Outside of the raids EVERYTHING has been nerfed to shit, including everything from leveling to harvesting times. No matter what game element you want to consider, it has been trivialized so much that WoW as a matter of fact no longer is an MMORPG. And with raids coming in Slightly hard, Normal and Knuckledragger modes, even that has been bastardized and made unexciting. Who wants to waste time doing something any slob can press a button and do too, without any problems at all? Not me! You raided for the excitement of seeing things not everyone could get to and to find gear nobody else could find. And that`s just the end of it. Nobody ever raided to get "achievement" number 6927, a title or some ridiculous mount nobody cares about anyway, because the game is so swamped with cheap, fake achievements of all kinds.