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  1. #41
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezuma View Post
    just wow , 1st off all hunter is natural counter to rogue and in arena u can sit on a flare and faceroll rogues partner with your partner aswell , the rogue or his partner never ever ever will have the upperhand against you , if u choose to step out from the flare and your camo and traps for anything else than opening on the rogue partner again u;re doing it wrong , no matter how u look at it as a hunter u will always have an advantage against the rogue.

    back on topic Subterfuge in WoD is getting fixed so OP can say thanks to blizz and if they nerf BoS the rogue will be totally useless his toolkit is not even close to other classes , a Shs with so long CD and a cloak and dagger that is useless BoS is in most cases the best choice
    This has ignorant all over it. I'v sat inside my flare and still got opened up on ( with you know the skills we are talking about in this thread ) so to say just sit in your flare and if you get opened up on you're bad is just stupid.

    To say that a rogue will NEVER have the upperhand on you is also ignorant.

    Just cause it looks perfect on paper doesn't mean the worst will never happen. It's not a scripted boss fight.........

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Yeah I think that's another major issue with rogues in general. They are gods in open world like Timeless Isle or random BGs. Probably even low ranked arenas. Unfortunately at high levels of play when utility and survivability come into play, they are the weakest.

    There needs to be a bit of balance there. When you pop up on someone as a surprise, you have a huge advantage and can usually inflict some major pain before they even know what's going on. Now put me in a 3s match when they know I'm there and the whole team sits on a flare or spams AoE...

    Plus if rogues get caught outside of their CDs they are fucked, meanwhile the other classes you mentioned have some substantial mid and short-length CDs.

    I'd like to see a few glyphs or talent options available like:

    Glyph of Rapid Recuperation
    You heal for 60% of the full effect of Recoup instantly instead of over time.
    Basically an option for a burst heal like Ember tap where you can build resources and trade DPS for survivability

    Glyph of Avoidance
    Your Evasion only increases dodge chance by 50% but reduces cool down by 50%.
    Allows for more usage of defensive CD but at lower effectiveness.

    Or something. Sorry getting OT. But to the point of rogues have great short game but in high level play with dedicated healers and more complex strategies, we are weak between CDs.

    When I play my Mage or Warlock, I find there's always some sort of defensive action I can take throughout the right whether it's Blinking or Teleporting away, fearing, healing with Ember tap or a talented no CD evo, etc
    Of course you think rogue sucks, i mean you play with nighstalker for crying out loud.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    This has ignorant all over it. I'v sat inside my flare and still got opened up on ( with you know the skills we are talking about in this thread ) so to say just sit in your flare and if you get opened up on you're bad is just stupid.

    To say that a rogue will NEVER have the upperhand on you is also ignorant.

    Just cause it looks perfect on paper doesn't mean the worst will never happen. It's not a scripted boss fight.........
    My friend stop make a fool of yourself , the rogue the second he steps in your flare hes out of stealth , i say you talk s**t the second rogue steps in your flare hes out of stealth subterfuge doesn't work there , all i can say you might have had delay or something and your flare was over , since u cant be target in camo by the rogue unless hes in melee range there is simply not possible for him to get there over a flare and still have the subterfuge active

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    It was really skilled for a wizard cleave to just spam aoes in a big radius around there entire team!
    This isn't s2 where sap was smaller range then nearly every character centered aoe.
    Stormspellz -mugthol
    Battletag - Stormz#1438

  5. #45
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezuma View Post
    My friend stop make a fool of yourself , the rogue the second he steps in your flare hes out of stealth , i say you talk s**t the second rogue steps in your flare hes out of stealth subterfuge doesn't work there , all i can say you might have had delay or something and your flare was over , since u cant be target in camo by the rogue unless hes in melee range there is simply not possible for him to get there over a flare and still have the subterfuge active
    I'm sorry "friend" but you are the one looking like the fool who plays a rogue and hates hunters as far as i can see.

    There was no delay of that i'm sure of ( i play with ms of like 20 ). I know what i see when i see it.

    It's happened many times were i'm standing in the middle of a flare, I see nothing yet i'm being stun locked by something i can't even see for another 3ish secs ( looks to me like they can do it ) So please keep telling me they can't.

    and please stfu about camo, jesus. People can get us out of camo just as easy as they can get you out of stealth ( again the rogue isn't the only thing or person in the equation )

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    I'm sorry "friend" but you are the one looking like the fool who plays a rogue and hates hunters as far as i can see.

    There was no delay of that i'm sure of ( i play with ms of like 20 ). I know what i see when i see it.

    It's happened many times were i'm standing in the middle of a flare, I see nothing yet i'm being stun locked by something i can't even see for another 3ish secs ( looks to me like they can do it ) So please keep telling me they can't.

    and please stfu about camo, jesus. People can get us out of camo just as easy as they can get you out of stealth ( again the rogue isn't the only thing or person in the equation )
    Doesnt work, subterfuge immediatly gets countered. He could have danced or something but you could have seen him.

  7. #47
    Legendary! Gumboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    This isn't s2 where sap was smaller range then nearly every character centered aoe.
    I'm not talking about that, I'm talking more in wotlk against wizards that just spammed aoes constantly, and if you used cloak=you dead. Or are you trying to deny that that happened? :P
    You're a towel.

  8. #48
    Subterfuge, in WoD, still lets rogues use stealth abilities, but does not keep them in stealth... this is mainly to fight rogues opening up on players and being un-peelable for several seconds.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    and please stfu about camo, jesus. People can get us out of camo just as easy as they can get you out of stealth ( again the rogue isn't the only thing or person in the equation )
    Except rogues can't, because they have to break their own stealth to AoE and sacrifice their opener. Hunters are 100% immune to single target abilities of any kind in Camo, no matter how obvious it is where they are standing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    I'm sorry "friend" but you are the one looking like the fool who plays a rogue and hates hunters as far as i can see.

    There was no delay of that i'm sure of ( i play with ms of like 20 ). I know what i see when i see it.

    It's happened many times were i'm standing in the middle of a flare, I see nothing yet i'm being stun locked by something i can't even see for another 3ish secs ( looks to me like they can do it ) So please keep telling me they can't.

    and please stfu about camo, jesus. People can get us out of camo just as easy as they can get you out of stealth ( again the rogue isn't the only thing or person in the equation )
    i'm sorry but i dont hate hunters and i havent pvped at all in the last few months, i just try to point out your flaws in your posts as i said u as a hunter u;re natural counter to rogue and by the looks of it others told you the same thing me as a rogue i cant get you out of your god damn camo+flare combo and still keep my subterfuge up there is simply not possible.
    U had delay , or rogue used shadow dance are more plausible than u getting stunlock for 3 sec from something u cant see for another 3ish seconds. if it happend in arena maybe the rogue partner used a stun / cc whatever on you and rogue just happend to show up 3 sec later and give u a kudos kidney shot and u thought it was rogue all along

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    Pretty sure those blizzards are not random - Takes a bit of luck yes but you can predict where you and your group will come from and place it there ( not really that hard )

    But you have just as many ways to get back into stealth and re-open. So i don't really see the argument there.
    Right, from blowing entire cooldowns before you've even dealt damage to the opponent. And yes, as I said there's an element of prediction to it, but it's STILL luck. A bit? The whole thing's luck. You're taking a good, educated guess at where you THINK the rogue/group will be and you're putting an AoE down. If he's there, you've just got him to either blow a cooldown or you've at least screwed up their opener, if he's not there then nothing happened. It doesn't matter how good a player are, you can never know where a stealthed player is, you can only guess.

    Btw, have you seen the size of warlock AoE's when spec'd? They can literally cover the entire upper floor of the Dalaran sewers if destro. I don't understand your argument at all, rogues rely on stealth - A random AoE shouldn't instantly break it, it can literally lose you the match because the other team took a good guess; I could just as easily have went right instead of left to get to my opponent, I just flipped a coin in my head. Obviously i'll try to avoid AoE's but I can't tell you how many times i'll go in for the opener and they just drop an aoe on top of me, the only thing that allows me actually open is subterfuge.

    I can't believe you actually think that if a rogue gets hit by an aoe then they should just spend the game running around trying to re-stealth before the match has even started or to blow a cooldown that we need oh-so-desperately, as rogues are probably the squishiest class outside of CDs and we simply can't go toe-to-toe with much without CD's. Fuck, even 'with' my opener my CD's feel limited sometimes; We're just so dependent on them, more than any other class. And no, I don't just play a rogue, far far from it.

    Also, have you actually played as a rogue? Afaik you play a hunter, and that would make you incredibly biased against rogues (you're the complete absolute 1v1 counter if played even half decently).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Littlepinch View Post
    I'm sorry "friend" but you are the one looking like the fool who plays a rogue and hates hunters as far as i can see.

    There was no delay of that i'm sure of ( i play with ms of like 20 ). I know what i see when i see it.

    It's happened many times were i'm standing in the middle of a flare, I see nothing yet i'm being stun locked by something i can't even see for another 3ish secs ( looks to me like they can do it ) So please keep telling me they can't.

    and please stfu about camo, jesus. People can get us out of camo just as easy as they can get you out of stealth ( again the rogue isn't the only thing or person in the equation )
    The ONLY way that a rogue can open on flare (while you're in camo) is to catch you while you're moving (assuming you don't have the glyph), run in and gouge, fan of knives (Though they'll likely just CC you after that with derpweb, unless the rogue can somehow manage to actually gouge it) or just shadowdance and nuke. You can not open from stealth in flare unless the hunter isn't camo'd, in which case you can shadowstep on top of him and if you're fast enough you can get a cheap shot, it's still very risky and gimmicky.

    Also, with track hidden if a rogue tries to open on you while you're stealthed in camo, you're nearly always going to get the first hit - We can't even sap you in camo and we also have to make sure that we don't accidentally target the pet and open on it (as you need to be fast so that the hunter doesn't hit you), obviously this is only the case outside of arena though. I have rarely seen a respectable hunter get opened on by a rogue; It only happens if the rogue gets really luck and dodges a lot, or if they hunter's half asleep.

    And yeah, regarding rogues at least, camo IS retarded. Other classes can break it for sure, but it's a serious pain in the ass for us; Track hidden gives you the upper hand whenever you get near us but when we can't even see you until we're right next to you, it's just, ARHADISIIOSDNIOPFSF. I sometimes do Rogue/Hunter 2v2's, and occasionally we get mirrors - The tactic is to dodge flares and stay nearish my partner and let him look for the other hunter/rogue while I just spam sap for the rogue and hope to fuck they don't randomly get lucky and flare me. I mean, not even subterfuge works with flare!!!!!
    Last edited by Zypherz; 2014-07-16 at 08:42 AM.

  12. #52
    Epic! Zaxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Except rogues can't, because they have to break their own stealth to AoE and sacrifice their opener. Hunters are 100% immune to single target abilities of any kind in Camo, no matter how obvious it is where they are standing.
    They are immune to Ranged attack but not melee (even sap work perfect on camoed hunter)
    What flare actually do only is that negate the effect of Subtefuge and you are here to cry against that just because you cant use your overpowered talent on the hunter
    I use other ones that include cloak and Dagger when i want to open hunter in flare. Shadowstep also is option but you cant have your stealth openers
    In WoD with the change of this ridicilus talent you will can open on hunter in camo with SS with posibility to use your stealt openers

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxio View Post
    They are immune to Ranged attack but not melee (even sap work perfect on camoed hunter)
    What flare actually do only is that negate the effect of Subtefuge and you are here to cry against that just because you cant use your overpowered talent on the hunter
    I use other ones that include cloak and Dagger when i want to open hunter in flare. Shadowstep also is option but you cant have your stealth openers
    In WoD with the change of this ridicilus talent you will can open on hunter in camo with SS with posibility to use your stealt openers
    what you smoke/ i want some ... sap is not a melee attack and we dont cry that we cant use subterfuge on hunter we just pointed out that we cant use it and your fellow hunter Littlepinch still insists the rogue can subterfuge a camo+flare hunter and stunlock him like there no problem , (hint u cant sap a camoflared hunter )

  14. #54
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezuma View Post
    what you smoke/ i want some ... sap is not a melee attack and we dont cry that we cant use subterfuge on hunter we just pointed out that we cant use it and your fellow hunter Littlepinch still insists the rogue can subterfuge a camo+flare hunter and stunlock him like there no problem , (hint u cant sap a camoflared hunter )
    you are all the ones saying flare + camo

    I never said i was camod - What i said was is that the rogue is not the only person on the other team - If his partner gets me out of camo yet i'm still in my flare ( at this point yes the rogue can and will open on you ) just because you can't read my post correctly please don't put words in my mouth.

  15. #55
    Immortal Soisoisoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaxio View Post
    They are immune to Ranged attack but not melee (even sap work perfect on camoed hunter)
    What flare actually do only is that negate the effect of Subtefuge and you are here to cry against that just because you cant use your overpowered talent on the hunter
    I use other ones that include cloak and Dagger when i want to open hunter in flare. Shadowstep also is option but you cant have your stealth openers
    In WoD with the change of this ridicilus talent you will can open on hunter in camo with SS with posibility to use your stealt openers
    You cant sap a Camo'd Hunter, you HAVE to open with (most likely) CS, so you have to have really good MS and jump into the flare, or waste CloS.

    Most of the time if you waste time deciding which one to do, or they chance and look in your general direction from 20y+ away, they'll just shoot you out of Stealth. Either way Camo+Flare is retarded in general because it makes no sense, but then again we have things like Dragons in the mail...

    So tl;dr the thread, did we decide if/what/why Subterfuge is OP or not? Seems to be a necessity for the current state of Rogues in arena from my PoV.
    Last edited by Soisoisoi; 2014-07-16 at 04:01 PM.

  16. #56
    Mechagnome Runeweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baracuda View Post
    Subterfuge is being fixed in warlords, dunno about burst of speed.
    Burst of Speed currently is the same, except you can't spam it anymore. If you have the effect active, you cannot reapply Burst of Speed until it fades.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Runeweaver View Post
    Burst of Speed currently is the same, except you can't spam it anymore. If you have the effect active, you cannot reapply Burst of Speed until it fades.
    I wouldn't say that's a nerf most likely a bug as this build also bugged out about 80% of rogue talents.

  18. #58
    Mechagnome Runeweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    I wouldn't say that's a nerf most likely a bug as this build also bugged out about 80% of rogue talents.
    It was the same in previous builds tbh. I don't really know if it's intended or not as well yeah, as you pointed out it could be a bug but who knows.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Runeweaver View Post
    It was the same in previous builds tbh. I don't really know if it's intended or not as well yeah, as you pointed out it could be a bug but who knows.
    No I've been in beta from the start the last big build was the first time it started doing this the same build that bugged out all the other talents.

    Its most likely a bug because if it was a nerf its a pretty bad one since all you have to do is make cancel aura macro in bos and you can keep spamming it.
    Last edited by wow; 2014-07-16 at 05:26 PM.

  20. #60
    Mechagnome Runeweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    No I've been in beta from the start the last big build was the first time it started doing this the same build that bugged out all the other talents.

    Its most likely a bug because if it was a nerf its a pretty bad one since all you have to do is make cancel aura macro in bos and you can keep spamming it.
    Oh damn, I completely forgot about that.

    Then yeah I agree with you. Has to be a bug.
    Last edited by Runeweaver; 2014-07-16 at 05:46 PM.

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