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  1. #41
    irrelevant to the topic but do any of you even use deep on non kill target as a cc? reading these replies it looks like everybody is stuck at 1.7k spamming ice lances into deep

  2. #42
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    i love that no one talks about the the purple diamond of globalling death... mess around with that a little bit
    Mostly because it's like reverse Rune of Power (and we all know how amazing Rune is in MoP PvP), and nearly every class has a way to either stop you from casting or can get away from the crystal without effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by sthings View Post
    irrelevant to the topic but do any of you even use deep on non kill target as a cc? reading these replies it looks like everybody is stuck at 1.7k spamming ice lances into deep
    Well you obviously don't spam IL into Deep with this current iteration. As a CC though, you only use it if your team has no other Stun available since not only is it the worst stun in the game currently (due to breaking on damage), but it also requires a FoF charge, which lowers your damage for wasting, AND it's also on the Stun DR. You don't want to waste that.

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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sthings View Post
    irrelevant to the topic but do any of you even use deep on non kill target as a cc? reading these replies it looks like everybody is stuck at 1.7k spamming ice lances into deep
    I kinda agree, r1 frost mages 9/10 times use their DP to control the enemy healer. I am not saying DP has not been nerfed, but the best mages do not care at all, considering they use DP for another purpose.

    As a CC though, you only use it if your team has no other Stun available since not only is it the worst stun in the game currently (due to breaking on damage)
    If you use it as a CC, why should you care if it breaks on damage? If you CC the enemy healer and focus one of the enemy dps, why should you care if it breaks on damage? Maybe you are concerned about random flying damage? DP doesn't break instantly, as Polymorph does, so it should still "hold" if you use DP on a dot'ed target or if your Water Elemental attacks him, for example.

    but it also requires a FoF charge, which lowers your damage for wasting
    You are right but you can also use it on frozen targets when FoF charges are not up. If you need to cast DP and you have FoF charges up, well, you are going to waste it, but, atleast, you have ways to avoid this situation. Rogues have to sacrifice Eviscerate/Envenom no matter what. Spriests have to sacrifice Devouring Plague (to use their horror) no matter what. Dks have to sacrifice a talent slot and they lose their silence too, and so on (the list is too long ).

    AND it's also on the Stun DR. You don't want to waste that.
    You don't want to waste it if you use DP on your focused target to do damage. If you use DP to cc the other targets the Stun DR is not wasted at all.

    Imo, if it won't be on the Stun DR anymore it will be a nerf to its cc power, don't you think? What do you suggest? Incapacitate? You have Polymorph and Ring of Frost. Silence? Frostjaw. Root? Freeze, Frost Nova, Ice Ward.

    If you just use DP as a CC tool, breaking on damage won't matter for you at all. On the contrary, changing its DR will be a nerf for its CC power, because your other CCs will last way less.

    Imo, they will probably change their DR, but it won't be a buff, as you think, but a nerf, a nerf that will be done because you can CC healer for ages. It looks like Ice Nova stun your target for 2 secs and do not shares DR with anything.

    I am actually very concerned about frost cc power. It looks like you can:
    Poly x 3: 14sec
    DP: 5 sec
    Frostjaw: 4sec
    2x IN: 4 sec
    (if they cast) Counterspell: 6 sec
    Poly x3 again: 14sec
    Frostjaw again: 4sec
    DP again: 5sec

    You can lock an healer for a lot of seconds, because everything has different DR. After 27sec of being CC'ed, if you manage to interrupt them, you can make them unable to cast for other 23 sec because your spells' DR ended.

    What did change from MoP? Someone could ask. Frostjaw and Ice Nova. Frostjaw does not share its DR with Counterspell anymore. In MoP, CC wise, it is: 6 sec Counterspell (interrupt) plus 2 sec Frostjaw (DR'ed with CS silence part). In WoD it will be: 6 sec Counterspell (interrupt) plus 4 sec Frostjaw, so you gained 2sec of extra cc. There's Ice Nova too, and it looks like it is a 2 sec stun, as far as I've been told, and you can use it two times in a row. These 6 extra sec make so Polymorph DR ends while your target is still CC'ed so you can use your CCs again.

    The only way to stop the almost never ending cycle is to:
    - interrupt the mage which is casting Polymorph or Frostjaw.
    - the enemy healer jukes your interrupt.

    But even if we consider Bob, the worst frost mage on WoW, he can still use its instant CCs to CC for a lot of seconds:
    DP: 5sec
    IN: 4sec

    Every 50sec, you can CC (stun) the enemy healer for 9 sec. Now I ask (as a side note), why this should be fine, but an instant Polymorph every 1.5 min (interrupt, 8 sec) is considered overpowered for the arcane spec and every other spec which had instant CCs?

    Also, we are talking about Bob and avoiding to talk about very good frost mages, even though we should not do it.
    Last edited by Seneca; 2014-07-23 at 03:29 PM.

  4. #44
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    *Going to assume all the parts where you said "DP", you meant "DF". If it's not DF, I have no idea what you're talking about.*

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    If you use it as a CC, why should you care if it breaks on damage? If you CC the enemy healer and focus one of the enemy dps, why should you care if it breaks on damage? Maybe you are concerned about random flying damage? DP doesn't break instantly, as Polymorph does, so it should still "hold" if you use DP on a dot'ed target or if your Water Elemental attacks him, for example.
    It's the fact that it has major drawbacks that I care; it needs a FoF charge or frozen requirement, when someone else could use their Stun instead and it WILL last the 5s (unless dispelled*/trinketed) and not lower your ally's damage, and not be limited by a restriction of your target having another effect already on them.

    * Note: Many stuns are considered melee abilities and therefore not dispellable through Healer dispels. Deep Freeze is not one of those Stuns, adding yet another drawback to Deep Freeze over other stuns.

    Drawbacks in a nice little list:
    - Breaks on damage; NO other stun does this.
    - Can be dispelled because it's a magic effect; many stuns aren't dispellable through this method.
    - Requires the target to be frozen or the Mage to have a FoF; very few stuns have a setup requirement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    You are right but you can also use it on frozen targets when FoF charges are not up. If you need to cast DP and you have FoF charges up, well, you are going to waste it, but, atleast, you have ways to avoid this situation. Rogues have to sacrifice Eviscerate/Envenom no matter what. Spriests have to sacrifice Devouring Plague (to use their horror) no matter what. Dks have to sacrifice a talent slot and they lose their silence too, and so on (the list is too long ).
    And how often do you actually have a non-DF frozen target and not have a FoF proc? Using DF on one of these targets not only removes your frozen effect, but ALSO takes a FoF too (because Blizzard won't code around it).

    PS: It takes a second or so for DF to trigger that you indeed have a frozen target. If anyone is attacking this target, it typically breaks before you can get DF off, even if it's glyphed off the GCD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    You don't want to waste it if you use DP on your focused target to do damage. If you use DP to cc the other targets the Stun DR is not wasted at all.
    All this does is remove the possibilities of DF, keep the restrictions, and even make it more useless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Imo, if it won't be on the Stun DR anymore it will be a nerf to its cc power, don't you think? What do you suggest? Incapacitate? You have Polymorph and Ring of Frost. Silence? Frostjaw. Root? Freeze, Frost Nova, Ice Ward. If you just use DP as a CC tool, breaking on damage won't matter for you at all. On the contrary, changing its DR will be a nerf for its CC power, because your other CCs will last way less.
    It can stay on the Stun DR if it actually worked like a stun instead of a root/fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    Imo, they will probably change their DR, but it won't be a buff, as you think, but a nerf, a nerf that will be done because you can CC healer for ages. It looks like Ice Nova stun your target for 2 secs and do not shares DR with anything.
    I can't imagine them nerfing DF any more than they already have. They've already scrapped most the useful bits out of it.

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  5. #45
    *Going to assume all the parts where you said "DP", you meant "DF". If it's not DF, I have no idea what you're talking about.*

    Ehm yeah, dunno why I kept writing DP ><.

    About DF drawbacks
    You are right, it has its drawbacks. Without the "breaking on damage" part I think DF is the strongest stun in the game. With the "breaking on damage" it is still one of the strongest stun in the game, if it isn't still the strongest.

    All the drawbacks you wrote are right, but what about its strong points?

    How many 5+ sec stuns have 35y range in the game? 1 (Deep Freeze)

    How many 5+ sec stuns increase your damage done in the game? 1 (Deep Freeze)

    And so on. The list is too long.

    The most important question: Would you change Deep Freeze for any other stun in the game? I don't think you would. Asphyxiate is one of the strongest stun in the game. Do you think Asphyxiate is better than DF? It has 5 less yard, make you waste a talent slot and make you lose a silence.

    Would you trade Deep Freeze for Asphyxhiate and your L45 talents, Counterspell, and 5yard range?

    Would you trade Deep Freeze for Hammer of Justice, another very strong (one of the strongest) stun in the game? 5sec stun, 35 yard range, every 30sec but breaks on damage or 6sec stun, 20 yard range (almost half range, you will never CC enemy healers, if they are smart) every 1 min (the double)?

    I mean, with the "break on damage" part, we can agree DF is not the best stun to use on your focused target anymore. Said that, at the same time, noone can disagree DF is the best stun in the game if your purpose is to CC your target.

    It is the highest range (35), the lowest cd (30), almost the highest duration (5sec) baseline stun in the game. Everyone would kill their cats to trade their stuns for DF.

    There's a reason r1 frost mages use DF almost exclusively to CC enemy healers. It is because DF is one of the best CC in the game. 5sec CC, every 30sec, from 35yard, instant, baseline.

    I see what you mean and I agree DF was nerfed but we have to underline that it was DF killing power which was nerfed. DF CCing power was not, at all.

    Reverting the "breaks on damage" part and reducing its duration to 4sec would make lots of high skilled frost mages really upset, if you want my humble opinion.

    Find me another spell which is better than DF if your purpose is to CC. Feel free to find something which is not a stun too, if you can .

    As a side note, do you think DF nerf was not necessary? Don't you think that, for example, combos like DF, Ice Nova, Ice Nova, Comet Storm (all instant spells which doesn't require any setup) could have melted people? With 20% crit chance, considering We's damage too (2 Waterbolt = 220% SP), this combos would have amounted to 1550% of your SP. This damage is as high as 10x Frostbolt 0o. It is beyond imagination. You should do this kind of damage over 20ish sec, not over 4sec. It is like doing 500% damage for 4sec. It's like if you would have had 25+ Arcane Power up for 4 sec and your target can't even move, use defensive spells or act in general. Don't you think DF nerf is justified? Without DF that combo goes down to 1106% SP (considering 20% crit chance and 2x Waterbolt and no frozen target too, for comparison's sake). Way softer forsure (even if still high as hell, dunno how developers will manage to balance it, but this is another argument).
    Last edited by Seneca; 2014-07-24 at 02:14 AM.

  6. #46
    DF breaking on damage is pretty much like unglyphed poly. Useless in many comp and totaly crap in BG.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
    *Going to assume all the parts where you said "DP", you meant "DF". If it's not DF, I have no idea what you're talking about.*

    Ehm yeah, dunno why I kept writing DP ><.



    You are right, it has its drawbacks. Without the "breaking on damage" part I think DF is the strongest stun in the game. With the "breaking on damage" it is still one of the strongest stun in the game, if it isn't still the strongest.

    All the drawbacks you wrote are right, but what about its strong points?

    How many 5+ sec stuns have 35y range in the game? 1 (Deep Freeze)

    How many 5+ sec stuns increase your damage done in the game? 1 (Deep Freeze)

    And so on. The list is too long.

    The most important question: Would you change Deep Freeze for any other stun in the game? I don't think you would. Asphyxiate is one of the strongest stun in the game. Do you think Asphyxiate is better than DF? It has 5 less yard, make you waste a talent slot and make you lose a silence.

    Would you trade Deep Freeze for Asphyxhiate and your L45 talents, Counterspell, and 5yard range?

    Would you trade Deep Freeze for Hammer of Justice, another very strong (one of the strongest) stun in the game? 5sec stun, 35 yard range, every 30sec but breaks on damage or 6sec stun, 20 yard range (almost half range, you will never CC enemy healers, if they are smart) every 1 min (the double)?

    I mean, with the "break on damage" part, we can agree DF is not the best stun to use on your focused target anymore. Said that, at the same time, noone can disagree DF is the best stun in the game if your purpose is to CC your target.

    It is the highest range (35), the lowest cd (30), almost the highest duration (5sec) baseline stun in the game. Everyone would kill their cats to trade their stuns for DF.

    There's a reason r1 frost mages use DF almost exclusively to CC enemy healers. It is because DF is one of the best CC in the game. 5sec CC, every 30sec, from 35yard, instant, baseline.

    I see what you mean and I agree DF was nerfed but we have to underline that it was DF killing power which was nerfed. DF CCing power was not, at all.

    Reverting the "breaks on damage" part and reducing its duration to 4sec would make lots of high skilled frost mages really upset, if you want my humble opinion.

    Find me another spell which is better than DF if your purpose is to CC. Feel free to find something which is not a stun too, if you can .

    As a side note, do you think DF nerf was not necessary? Don't you think that, for example, combos like DF, Ice Nova, Ice Nova, Comet Storm (all instant spells which doesn't require any setup) could have melted people? With 20% crit chance, considering We's damage too (2 Waterbolt = 220% SP), this combos would have amounted to 1550% of your SP. This damage is as high as 10x Frostbolt 0o. It is beyond imagination. You should do this kind of damage over 20ish sec, not over 4sec. It is like doing 500% damage for 4sec. It's like if you would have had 25+ Arcane Power up for 4 sec and your target can't even move, use defensive spells or act in general. Don't you think DF nerf is justified? Without DF that combo goes down to 1106% SP (considering 20% crit chance and 2x Waterbolt and no frozen target too, for comparison's sake). Way softer forsure (even if still high as hell, dunno how developers will manage to balance it, but this is another argument).

    ppl like you are the ones who struggle in pvp, you find reasons to claim nerfs are fine and justified, but you do realise that frostmage has no damage outside of deepfreeze, so with your argument i could say that mages have deepfreeze to do damage so they cant do damage during its cooldown.

    side note frost mages are built around deep freeze release damage, hense why they are a setup class and not a tsg playstyle.

    that being said i think they need to bring back coc nova/something to buff other specs and buiilds as mage.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by danki1337 View Post
    ppl like you are the ones who struggle in pvp
    What about answering to what I say, instead to attack me as a person/player? It is not constructive at all, is it?

    Said that, assuming you are not trolling and you are serious, I'll reply to what you said.

    you find reasons to claim nerfs are fine and justified
    Atleast I found something, I brought datas and analysis on the table. What's your counter-argument? I mean, I am not saying I am right, but you should try to find a counter-argument instead to say that I struggle in pvp and that I do (supposedly 0o) other things which, in reality, I do not, like "you do realise that frostmage has no damage outside of deepfreeze".

    so with your argument i could say that mages have deepfreeze to do damage so they cant do damage during its cooldown.
    What argument of mine? I'll say it with other words to make it clearer. What I was saying is this: years ago (exps ago), in a world where frost mages had Frostbolt and Ice Lance as their only damaging moves, and their damage was way lower (dps wise), than the other dps specs/classes, Deep Freeze could have sounded reasonable.

    In a world (WoD) where Frost will do (supposedly) as much dps as the other classes/specs, and got, in addition, tons of procs and CDs damaging moves, the power of Deep Freeze is too high to be reasonable.

    Back on Wotlk, 2 Frostbolt + 1 Ice lance was way, way more manageable than something like Ice Nova, Ice Nova, Comet Storm, whose damage is high as hell outisde of DF to begin with. 2 FB + 1 IL, Wotlk wise, would have increased your damage by 50-100% for 4 sec. Ice Nova, Ice Nova, Comet Storm increases your damage by 500%, because these spells are not filler spells to begin with and because their DPET is high as hell in the first place.

    If a Frostbolt, in WoD, would hit for 8% of your enemy total health, a combo like that (IN IN CS) would hit for 80% of your enemy total health, in 4sec, while your target can't act or move. Is that remotely balanced? Even if FB would hit for 5% of your enemy total health (to be extremely generous), that combo would have done 50% of your target total health in 4sec while he can't even act or move (and we are not considering your teammate damage at all).

    Said that, I would like to know:
    1) Would you trade DF for any other stun in the game?
    2) Don't you think DF was the best CC, best steroid and best killing move in the whole game? (With the nerf, it is going to be, still, the best CC and the best steroid, but lose the supremacy as the best killing move, imo).
    3) Don't you think that being useless outside of DF and oneshotting during DF is synonymous of bad design and generates bad situations both for the mage and for his enemies?

    DF breaking on damage is pretty much like unglyphed poly. Useless in many comp and totaly crap in BG.
    DF breaking on damage is basically like a (ranged, single target) Frost Nova which stuns too (prevents your target to move or act).
    Last edited by Seneca; 2014-07-24 at 04:17 PM.

  9. #49
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    Are the people worried about the DF change playing the Beta? I can't really see a lot of Mages in the Beta currently actually complaining, because Mages are currently kicking some serious ass. Their damage is extremely high, and DF breaking earlier is making fighting them not less painful. You setup DF, position yourself, and let it rip. So you have 1-2 sec less time before your slowed target is somewhat mobile again. It's not that big of a problem with the current state of the game.

    I don't just get hit by mages. I play one on Live too, and in the Beta. They're feeling really strong atm. Some other classes have a lot more problems than DF breaking earlier.

  10. #50
    Sensing some hostility in the air.. So please tune it down a bit and stop posting if you have nothing else to say than "NOPE, CAUSE U ARE BAD".

    You can say someone is wrong, but please do it with good manners.. and adding some reasoning for such statement would go a long way too. That way you give the other person the chance to either respond with further trying to explain what he mains or realise his/her mistake.


    Thank you for the read

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Mostly because it's like reverse Rune of Power (and we all know how amazing Rune is in MoP PvP), and nearly every class has a way to either stop you from casting or can get away from the crystal without effort.
    this isnt true .. you set up with it easily and effectively and it literally 1 shots people. watch venruki's stream he's pretty good with it.

    my point was that no one has tried it because they don't know how to use it effectively..
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2014-07-26 at 01:03 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  12. #52
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    this isnt true .. you set up with it easily and effectively and it literally 1 shots people. watch venruki's stream he's pretty good with it.

    my point was that no one has tried it because they don't know how to use it effectively..
    To be fair, I don't have beta access and haven't tried it, I just chose to use a stupid analogy, plus, well, I'm biased against things that stand still, apparently.

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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    this isnt true .. you set up with it easily and effectively and it literally 1 shots people. watch venruki's stream he's pretty good with it.

    my point was that no one has tried it because they don't know how to use it effectively..
    Crystal is quite broken atm when it comes to mechanics. It double dips in so many ways, that it will certainly get some sort of a nerf or a fix. That said Crystal something I have sort of mixed feelings about.. In 1 way it's really effective way to get people disengage, but damage wise.. people probably do want to get away from it as fast as possible(if mage damage will be balanced). So it will probably end more of a control spell most of the time. Or combined with some sort of stun/root/slow that the opponent can't get away. Which makes it situational as a damage buff, but interesting none the less for now.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    To be fair, I don't have beta access and haven't tried it, I just chose to use a stupid analogy, plus, well, I'm biased against things that stand still, apparently.
    well what you said was sorta what i thought too when i read the tip before i tried it, so the intent wasnt to guilt you because you and other people who didnt know how strong it was, i was just trying to point out that people should try it. It's super good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    Crystal is quite broken atm when it comes to mechanics. It double dips in so many ways, that it will certainly get some sort of a nerf or a fix. That said Crystal something I have sort of mixed feelings about.. In 1 way it's really effective way to get people disengage, but damage wise.. people probably do want to get away from it as fast as possible(if mage damage will be balanced). So it will probably end more of a control spell most of the time. Or combined with some sort of stun/root/slow that the opponent can't get away. Which makes it situational as a damage buff, but interesting none the less for now.
    that explains alot.. it seems too good to be true.

    On the second point in that paragraph; you have a stun on a 25/30 sec cool down and 2 independent root DRs...so I dunnnnnoo how you think that talent is situational unless you mean you can use it in just about every pvp situation
    Last edited by Lulbalance; 2014-07-27 at 12:21 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shahada View Post
    The devs aren't stupid.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    On the second point in that paragraph; you have a stun on a 25/30 sec cool down and 2 independent root DRs...so I dunnnnnoo how you think that talent is situational unless you mean you can use it in just about every pvp situation
    Unless he was taking into account the possibility to play as fire or arcane, PvP wise

    Even if we consider the nova talents the default choice for PvP contexts, (in particular for arcane and fire mages), hard CCs owned by ours spec are:

    Frost: DF (stun), Freeze (root), IN (2x stun) = 4 very good hard CCs.

    Arcane: SN (Interrupt) = hardly we can call it an hard CC (I am not sure if it acts as a stun or as an interrupt, I'll ask it soon, still, in the best case (a stun), it is just 1 hard CC)

    Fire: DB (Disorient) = a soft CC, we can gain 1 sec at best.

    I assume Venruki was playing frost, right?

    Am I missing something about the possibility to effectly use PC as fire or arcane, PvP wise? Maybe some beta testers found some combo I fail to see.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Varlak View Post
    DF breaking on damage is pretty much like unglyphed poly. Useless in many comp and totaly crap in BG.
    Inclined to agree with you there but we haven't seen any proper PVP testing, really wpvp and that shitstorm called Ashran.

  17. #57
    Legendary! Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulbalance View Post
    well what you said was sorta what i thought too when i read the tip before i tried it, so the intent wasnt to guilt you because you and other people who didnt know how strong it was, i was just trying to point out that people should try it. It's super good.
    Oh I know it's strong, but I just don't like the mechanics of it. Without testing, it just seems awkward/clunky.

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  18. #58
    I kinda agree, r1 frost mages 9/10 times use their DP to control the enemy healer. I am not saying DP has not been nerfed, but the best mages do not care at all, considering they use DP for another purpose.
    You're correct if your experience of PvP begins and ends in a 3s match. Otherwise, no, it has tremendous negative effects for Mage PvP.

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