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  1. #61
    Hey, I usually don't play mage (warlock myself) but I saw this thread on the frontpage and wanted to jump in and see what everyone thought regarding "pure casters" in WoD.
    For me MoP had been extremely underwhelming because of all the instant CC and lack of casting + CD stacking.
    Now looking at WoD it seems like they are bent on destroying any form of CC, even if it requires skill to pull off. Warlocks and Mages are notorious for having access to some of the few casted CC spells that are not on cooldown (Fear and Poly), and these require coordination and setup to pull off. Comps such as MLD are by far the ones that require the most coordination to get the most out of them.
    That's not to say that some versions of them are not retarded (see fire MLS back in Cata which required you to only DoT tab and Combust), but weaving all different DRs and cross-CCing your opponents into a kill is maybe the most interesting thing this game has to offer imo.

    If you look back at comps like Destro/Fire/Rdruid back in Cata, you can see how much intense coordination and cross-CCing is required to get a kill off. Fear x2 the healer all while cloning x2 the DPS and then swapping between the two, using a Dragon's Breath on the third to prevent interrupts and then Shadowfurying the healer to let the mage poly him all while the Druid now clones the first DPS and the warlock fears the other one that's about to get out of the Dragon's Breath, etc... This takes SKILL and coordination to perform and I'd really hate to see it go.
    With the changes they're doing to DRs, it seems impossible to tactically CC a team as deeply as we could. CC in MoP was retarded but only because of all the instants that they added since the previous expansion and changes to dispel. When you see radical changes to the way in which CC works such as making Death Coil, Dragon's Breath and Polymorph share DR, it's just ridiculous... I honestly don't see the point in playing a Mage or Warlock if you can't kite and CC your targets to get a kill. That's what both of these classes are supposed to do to begin with.

    I'm all for removing some retarded CC that takes nothing to pull off, but Blizzard seems to fail to realize that when we had access to different DRs and instant CCs before MoP, they came with a consequence:
    -Death Coil had a 1.5 minute cooldown to CC a target for 3 seconds
    -Dragon's Breath could be broken with any form of direct damage
    -Deep Freeze required a Frozen target or a charge of FoF
    -Fear was one of the most countered CCs in the entire game
    -Dispels did not have a cooldown and could be spammed indefinitely

    The way towards which the game is gravitating at the moment makes playing a CC-based caster very boring in my opinion. We do not have access to indefinite self-heals or "out of role" abilities like druids and shamans. They've stripped us of so many CC and kiting tools that we might end up just spamming rotations most of the time. Even if both classes end up being viable or overpowered, that would not be interesting gameplay, which is very disappointing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    You may be on to something here... GC claimed Ret Paladins killed his parents. Could it be that Warlocks drained Celas' dog soul?

  2. #62
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Yeah it kinda makes you wonder what the point of being a pure is nowadays since hybrids have a plethora of ways to heal (Boomkins on live make amazing battle-healers) and don't seem to suffer in any area, while in WoD we're getting a fair chunk of our CC just stripped from us (Combustion, Deep Freeze now sucks, CoC is Frost only)

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Yeah it kinda makes you wonder what the point of being a pure is nowadays since hybrids have a plethora of ways to heal (Boomkins on live make amazing battle-healers) and don't seem to suffer in any area, while in WoD we're getting a fair chunk of our CC just stripped from us (Combustion, Deep Freeze now sucks, CoC is Frost only)
    i found a good build as fire that actually trolls mega hard. it isnt so bad anymore. i cant say the same for frost/arcane, but fire is in a decent spot actually.

  4. #64
    Immortal Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    i found a good build as fire that actually trolls mega hard. it isnt so bad anymore. i cant say the same for frost/arcane, but fire is in a decent spot actually.
    Oh I know Fire's in a decent spot, but a weird one. It gets screwed on lack of dispel protection, but if you can get a single-target Pyro-Meteor (and both Crit) > Combustion combo, they're going to take some ludicrous damage.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Oh I know Fire's in a decent spot, but a weird one. It gets screwed on lack of dispel protection, but if you can get a single-target Pyro-Meteor (and both Crit) > Combustion combo, they're going to take some ludicrous damage.
    yeah thats the only crutch. you need to run with a dispel heavy class or else its pointless.

  6. #66
    Recently I got tired of playing frost (talking about live here, not beta), and I decided to go fire, and I'm having a lot of fun. But the timing gets me worried, since we are about to go WoD and have lots of changes. So I'm following close the mage fire discussions, pvp wise.

    Whats that good build you're talking about Not Againn? How u guys think fire gonna turn out for pvp when wod goes live? I'm watching some Hansol's beta fire mage pvp stuff and I just can't make up my mind yet, too many things to be tuned still right?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumaw View Post
    Recently I got tired of playing frost (talking about live here, not beta), and I decided to go fire, and I'm having a lot of fun. But the timing gets me worried, since we are about to go WoD and have lots of changes. So I'm following close the mage fire discussions, pvp wise.

    Whats that good build you're talking about Not Againn? How u guys think fire gonna turn out for pvp when wod goes live? I'm watching some Hansol's beta fire mage pvp stuff and I just can't make up my mind yet, too many things to be tuned still right?
    http://wod.wowhead.com/talent#mx\n2|
    back it doesnt carry over for some reason.

    evanescence
    ice barrier
    ice ward
    cold snap
    blast wave
    incanters flow
    meteor
    Last edited by Not Againnn; 2014-08-08 at 08:08 PM.

  8. #68
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    Reverting the "breaks on damage" part and reducing its duration to 4sec would make lots of high skilled frost mages really upset, if you want my humble opinion.
    Tough. The world doesn't revolve around them. If Blizzard intends to redistribute the spec's damage into other spells, so that it still has reliable burst, fine. If not, the nerf should be undone or the spell should be renamed something other than a stun. It's more like a disorient now. Maybe also be removed from being dispellable.

    Arcane could be cool with the mage 4pc PVP set, especially with the bump up to 3 charges for Arcane Missiles, given that you can cast Arcane Blast/Arcane Missiles on the move whilst AP is up, so just keep extending it through Arcane Missiles (through Overpowered) and you are a moving cannon for quite some time. Not sure how feasible this will be in practice, however, as it would require a high uptime for AM (which is possible depending on how much it procs through Ablast and Abarr), and AM only extends AP by 2 seconds per channel (or so I assume). Could work with high haste.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Not Againnn View Post
    http://wod.wowhead.com/talent#mx\n2|
    back it doesnt carry over for some reason.

    evanescence
    ice barrier
    ice ward
    cold snap
    blast wave
    incanters flow
    meteor
    Does Cold Snap work with Evanesce? It should, since that spell replaces IB, but does it?
    Last edited by Zathrendar; 2014-08-10 at 12:52 PM.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  9. #69
    I don't see rogues countering a mage, they are that terrible of a class to get walked on all the time.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Thaladhrun View Post
    Does Cold Snap work with Evanesce? It should, since that spell replaces IB, but does it?
    It does. What I don't know is if the glyph of regenerative ice (or whatever it's called, the one that makes your iceblock heal you over time) also works with evanesce.

  11. #71
    Herald of the Titans Zathrendar's Avatar
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    It'd be nice if it did, even if for a reduced amount, to account for Evanesce's frequency.
    Start trying to work out who deserves what, and before long you’ll spend the rest of your days weeping for each and every person in the world.

  12. #72
    It's probably a bit early to say the sky is falling, but from what I see (beta videos mostly) and hear, most classes just walk over mages currently on beta. Saw a couple of warrior vs mage videos, the warrior was constantly hitting for 50-60k+ and it finished with 176k crit execute. Mage highest crit was something like 20k. I know numbers haven't been really tuned and it's hard to factor in player skill, but something else bugs me as well and that is sustainability. We seem to have lost a few tools to help in avoiding damage (Blizz said we are avoiders ) So currently as it stands -

    1. we can't really avoid much of the damage
    2. we can't really heal as many other classes can
    3. we don't do any significant damage

    I know Blizzard oh too well to know that it's actually high time to make a stink about the class, because if everyone is thinking "well, it's beta, it's early and so on" things will not change much and we will go into live in this crippled state. I'm really not an expert at pvp, but I don't have to be to see that the class is trash atm, so I ask more experienced mages to provide constructive feedback and raise us from the bottom of the barrel.

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