Malaysian Airlines flight carrying 295 people has been shot down in Ukraine

[bclumas]

Just to fix it for you MerinPally.
Separatists could shoot down everything else with simple MANPADS. But not this plane and there's no evidence that they ever had BUK or similar system. OSCE had limited access because some areas were shelled at that time.
Ukrainians on the other hand were LYING, why? This simple fact outweighs everything else.

You have undisputed evidence to support that claim that they did not have a BUK system. Contrary to your "no evidence" line, there have been mounds of circumstantial evidence to support that they did, in fact, have access to a BUK system. And, yes, it exists, even if you close your eyes, plug your ears, and scream "NANANA-I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" every time it becomes presented.

No, I won't repost it for you. It's been posted ad nauseum in this thread. You're welcome to counter this with whatever bullshit line of your choosing, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it exists. If you're really interested in showing how undeluded you are compared to the general consensus, why don't you go back through this thread, pull out of all the supporting evidence for the pro-Russian rebels having a BUK system, and dispute that with other evidence? That doesn't mean "this is bullshit" or any form of that will count. Just because you disagree with it, doesn't make it false.

I guess it must be fun for you to live in a world where everything has to exist the exact way it is portrayed in your mind, else it doesn't exist at all. To me it seems like a life lacking in critical thinking and possibilities, but YMMV. I guess your blissful ignorance is just that--blissful.

[Cynep]

Speaking of evidence and stuff. Ukrainian army is advancing both south and north of the crash site. Terrorists keep obstructing the investigators, but not for long. Soon the crash site will be liberated and Ukraine will provide unhindered access to it - Ukraine has nothing to hide, unlike the terrorists.

[Deleted]

Speaking of evidence and stuff. Ukrainian army is advancing both south and north of the crash site. Terrorists keep obstructing the investigators, but not for long. Soon the crash site will be liberated and Ukraine will provide unhindered access to it - Ukraine has nothing to hide, unlike the terrorists.

That's why they've been shelling it for days after the investigating team sorted out an agreement to access the site.

[Elhana]

Speaking of evidence and stuff. Ukrainian army is advancing both south and north of the crash site. Terrorists keep obstructing the investigators, but not for long. Soon the crash site will be liberated and Ukraine will provide unhindered access to it - Ukraine has nothing to hide, unlike the terrorists.

If Ukraine army had nothing to hide, they would've backed off from crash site until investigation is complete, especially since rebels were cooperating already, handed in black boxes etc. Instead Ukranian army is desperately trying to capture a crash site, shelling remaining evidence with mortars. Another reason for that is capturing crash site would allow them to split rebel forces in Donetsk and Lugank.

"Nothing to hide" like in 2001 when Ukraine army shot down another passenger jet over black sea and denied it until there was clearly proven they did it.

[Kellhound]

If Ukraine army had nothing to hide, they would've backed off from crash site until investigation is complete, especially since rebels were cooperating already, handed in black boxes etc. Instead Ukranian army is desperately trying to capture a crash site, shelling remaining evidence with mortars. Another reason for that is capturing crash site would allow them to split rebel forces in Donetsk and Lugank.

"Nothing to hide" like in 2001 when Ukraine army shot down another passenger jet over black sea and denied it until there was clearly proven they did it.

And right there is the viable reason to strike the region.

[Deleted]

And right there is the viable reason to strike the region.

So Ukraine is using the dead civilians to grab an important peace of land?

[Puupi]

So Ukraine is using the dead civilians to grab an important peace of land?

No, they are trying to win the war. And a key to that is cutting supply lines from Russia and splitting rebel forces in two. It just happens to be that the very last piece of land connecting those rebels is the area surrounding the MH17 crash site.

[Deleted]

So Ukraine is using the dead civilians to grab an important peace of land?

What the hell did you think? If they cared about civilians, there would be ceasefire. They're using this crash to push hard, because they know separatists can't defend that area very well (and if they did, Kiev would be crying that they're tempering with the evidence).

There are only 2 options:
-They're using this to gain more land.
-They're obstructing investigation because it would show something they don't like.

Or, of course, both of them.

[Kellhound]

So Ukraine is using the dead civilians to grab an important peace of land?

It would be the militarily sound thing to do. And do remember, warfare isn't ethical by nature.

[Megraam]

Speaking of evidence and stuff. Ukrainian army is advancing both south and north of the crash site. Terrorists keep obstructing the investigators, but not for long. Soon the crash site will be liberated and Ukraine will provide unhindered access to it - Ukraine has nothing to hide, unlike the terrorists.

Yes, Ukranian army even resorted to ballistic missiles attacks with a lot of civilian casualties in the result of inaccurateness.

[Puupi]

Yes, Ukranian army even resorted to ballistic missiles attacks with a lot of civilian casualties in the result of inaccurateness.

Which has nothing to do with what you quoted?

[Megraam]

Which has nothing to do with what you quoted?

How does it change the fact itself? The quote is obviously biased since the only side caught with their lies red-handed is Ukranian army. Thus the part of "nothing to hide" is rather fishy.

[Deleted]

So you guys are ok with Ukraine bombing the MH17 crash site and not allowing investigation to keep going.
it's ok. The point has been made.

[Puupi]

How does it change the fact itself? The quote is obviously biased since the only side caught with their lies red-handed is Ukranian army. Thus the part of "nothing to hide" is rather fishy.

Well you can go shout your propaganda somewhere else.

[Megraam]

Well you can go shout your propaganda somewhere else.

Kindly pay attention to the fact lies from Ukranian side were proven and agreed even here.

[Puupi]

Kindly pay attention to the fact lies from Ukranian side were proven and agreed even here.

It is true, but you use it as propaganda, that is the difference. Everybody knows it happened so you don't need to shout it aloud all eternity.

PS. There is nothing wrong in using ballistic missiles, very standard weapon in all modern wars.

- - - Updated - - -

https://twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/status/494786294992863232

Russia moving multiple BUK systems towards Ukraine

[MerinPally]

So you guys are ok with Ukraine bombing the MH17 crash site and not allowing investigation to keep going.
it's ok. The point has been made.

Incorrect yet again. Note that almost everyone you seem to think is pro Ukraine here has advocated a ceasefire. You say you followed this thread before posting but you really seem incapable of showing it, from stuff like "we don't know that rebels tampered with the site" to this. Shit happens in war and you have to accept that, the difference is that Ukraine has not repeatedly broken their agreements although they have broken some. Secondly, they are not "bombing the crash site" they are bombing the surrounding area. You got upset at me last night for supposedly making things up when I actually didn't, so don't you do it yourself.

[Megraam]

It is true, but you use it as propaganda, that is the difference. Everybody knows it happened so you don't need to shout it aloud all eternity.

PS. There is nothing wrong in using ballistic missiles, very standard weapon in all modern wars.

I don't understand what are you talking about: facts are facts, when I have a fact which contradicts the biased statement posted here, I will use this fact to counter it. This is what I have done.

Ukranian army have started using ballistic missiles only recently: this weapon is inaccurate and there were a lot of civil casualties because of that. My colleague has a family in a village near Donetsk and they have to move into a building basement because missile fired by Ukranian army destroyed 2 houses nearby.

Imagine yourself building a house for at least 5 years of your life and then it is destroyed just because your government decided so.

[MerinPally]

I don't understand what are you talking about: facts are facts, when I have a fact which contradicts the biased statement posted here, I will use this fact to counter it. This is what I have done.

Ukranian army have started using ballistic missiles only recently: this weapon is inaccurate and there were a lot of civil casualties because of that. My colleague has a family in a village near Donetsk and they have to move into a building basement because missile fired by Ukranian army destroyed 2 houses nearby.

Imagine yourself building a house for at least 5 years of your life and then it is destroyed just because your government decided so.

It's not the governments fault there is a war going on. Is that bad what happened to your friend? Sure. But to think your'e going to have no collateral damage in a war is madness. If you can show they're purposely targetting civilians that's one thing but apart from that, welcome to the warzone. Can the government end it? Of course they can but they have 2 options - push and win (which is what they chose) or decide to let the rebels get away with their bullshit. They made their choice and frankly I don't blame them.

[Megraam]

It's not the governments fault there is a war going on. Is that bad what happened to your friend? Sure. But to think your'e going to have no collateral damage in a war is madness. If you can show they're purposely targetting civilians that's one thing but apart from that, welcome to the warzone. Can the government end it? Of course they can but they have 2 options - push and win (which is what they chose) or decide to let the rebels get away with their bullshit. They made their choice and frankly I don't blame them.

They can use any weapons which don't 'accidentally' kill civilians and destroy their houses.