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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Denkou View Post
    In regards to story, though, sometimes feeling too involved can also take away from the sense of immersion for some people. Many people don't like the fact that the player character is the "hero" and that the choices you make have such a large and profound affect on the story. WotLK is a good example - while the Lich King's downfall was a collective group effort, many of the quests have you doing things that would seem nearly impossible for any one person to accomplish, even a major lore character, yet you always come out triumphant. To some people, this takes away from the sense of immersion. Some people feel that the player character should not be that powerful and should be equivalent of a regular soldier in the Horde/Alliance or perhaps a high-ranking Lieutenant, but certainly not a character with power of epic proportions. They want to feel that they contributed to the effort alongside many others, not that they single-handedly took out an army.
    You are talking about personal preference, which I'm sure can be immersion breaking for that individual. It doesn't make the fault with whatever is they dislike. It's just them and their quirks. Which is fine. If something is logically consistent with the rules set up in that game world, it isn't immersion breaking.

    So to use a popular example: Some hate mounted flight and it may break their personal immersion. But its not Flight itself that is immersion breaking, its their distaste for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrandir View Post
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  2. #102
    a sense of scope of the "world" in the game. like, if you're in stranglethorn vale and you want to get to tanaris, it is kind of an adventure.
    Quote Originally Posted by inboundpaper View Post
    The short answer is nope, the long answer is noooooooooooooooope.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    AKA shit you made up to justify dumb comment on quality of life changes.
    Huh?

    Not really. My definition was pretty spot on. The rest of the post was my opinion, though.


    1 Yes, that is indeed somewhat immersion breaking, but on the other hand feeding pets is bit questionable since you don't have to feed yourself either. Modeling all parts of digestive system has never been big in computer games so you really shouldn't except anything more from WoW either. Besides wou were giving treats to pets before to make them happier, and that's purely optional in real life too.
    You do feed yourself - in fact, there are over a thousand different types of food items in the game. You feed yourself via food items to recover health. Yes, there isn't a hungry meter or anything, but it's pretty logical. Hence why there's a cooking profession. And feeding wild animals (aka pets) causes them to trust you and that's pretty much like real life. Treats, too. So I'm not sure what your point is.

    3 Depends on what kind of magic does the world of Azeroth have. If the magic is "mind over matter" then theres no need for reagents at all, it's purely user's will that does things, while the idea of reagents comes from the alchemy traditions. Changing the type of magic in the middle is weird, but neither is less immersive when we're talking about magic.
    The idea of reagents comes from D&D which is what WoW and most MMORPGs are based off of. That being said, it's been proven (due to the fact that reagents were once a thing) that not all magic in Azeroth is "mind over matter." Yes, some spells you can just cast...but some spells required reagents. This was realistic - based off of D&D, which again, WoW was inspired by.

    And if you want to get really technical, "magic" in real life (I.E. practice by pagans, wiccas, shamanistic folk, santerians, etc) all require objects/reagents, too. So it's immersive.

    4 Again depends on the nature of magic. If you're self-thaught (getting enlightened in some kind of meditation) you don't need a teacher, on the other hand if it's some teacher who tells you to memorize a rote that does the magic then you'd need a teacher. Both are again valid ways of doing magic in fictional worlds, it's just the change in the middle which is silly.
    Again, this isn't the case based on the past of WoW and the lore. In the lore, lesser spellcasters need to learn greater spells from tomes and/or greater spellcasters. The change in the middle was very silly, and helped hurt immersion. =)

    Ammo was necessarily cut down at the point where inventory management became too hard in expansions as the amount of "toys" exploded. WoW's inventory system was just designed wrong from the beginning, and they've tried to fix it over time with various little things like removing ammo, reagents, soul shards, keys and other similar shit that shouldn't take inventory space to begin with. Adding bigger bags only work to a certain point before it becomes silly.
    I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not here. I'll just say that removing stuff like that is part of the problem why the game feels less special.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pull My Finger View Post
    Someone got the term really, really, I mean REALLY really wrong.

    I actually find it hilarious how much the term is being thrown around here and on other WoW boards, considering the fact that MMOs are really not the genre of games that is typically best suited for creating or experiencing "immersion".
    Everquest was immersive. Diablo 2 was immersive. Skyrim games are immersive (Elder Scrolls, from what I've played)

    Most games are immersive. WoW was at one point. It still is, just very reduced.

  4. #104
    The Lightbringer Primernova's Avatar
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    Immersion in an MMO, is social skills, dedication, skill and networking.

    Immersion in a single player game is atmosphere. Skyrim, Stalker and Farcry are good examples

    Immersion in a multiplayer game is ganking/hacking for lulz.

    All are best when stoned.

  5. #105
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Immersion is when i forget I'm playing a game and I'm totally absorbed in the game's activities to the point where I'm oblivious to the real world. When a game can do this to me, I know I'm really enjoying it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not here. I'll just say that removing stuff like that is part of the problem why the game feels less special.
    I don't think they needed to be removed, just redesigned to not take bag space.

    With that said though I'm not going to complain about no longer needing to buy 4,000 arrows for my hunter before a raid.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  6. #106
    The game does not remind me in any form that I really suck at playing it.

    I heard.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Not really. My definition was pretty spot on. The rest of the post was my opinion, though.
    Your definition was just regular crying over "dumbing down" things that has got nothing to do with immersion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    You do feed yourself - in fact, there are over a thousand different types of food items in the game. So I'm not sure what your point is.
    You don't need to feed yourself in WoW, even though you can. You can regain health and mana in multiple other ways as well. Seeing the point now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    The idea of reagents comes from D&D which is what WoW and most MMORPGs are based off of.
    Comes from alchemy originally, D&D gets their ideas from previous sources too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    And if you want to get really technical, "magic" in real life (I.E. practice by pagans, wiccas, shamanistic folk, santerians, etc) all require objects/reagents, too. So it's immersive.
    You're talking about western traditions only. In eastern traditions magic (chi) is internal and done without any materials required.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    I'm not sure whether you're agreeing with me or not here. I'll just say that removing stuff like that is part of the problem why the game feels less special.
    Being annoying (soul shards, hunter ammo etc) made the game special in wrong way. Fixing design mistakes and 20 year old totally outdated design philosophies is a good thing.

  8. #108
    Simply put, immersion is feeling like you're actually 'there', rather than a 3rd person in said environment. Few games nail it, and in truthfulness, it hinges quite a bit on the psyche of the player at that point in time.

    As already stated, it has nothing to do with realism, but there are other factors such as risk that can aid in it.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion
    Plox. I got your plox right fucking here. - Animalhouse
    I still prefer seeing Thrall rather than blood in my urine, that doesnt make him a good character. - Verdugo

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Your definition was just regular crying over "dumbing down" things that has got nothing to do with immersion.
    Not really. I think if you actually read my post, it had nothing to do with "dumbing down" of any kind...nor was that phrase used. Maybe you're projecting.


    You don't need to feed yourself in WoW, even though you can. You can regain health and mana in multiple other ways as well. Seeing the point now?
    Yeah, using potions, regeneration, and other things. Doesn't mean it isn't there. Cooking and eating helps to create immersion. If it wasn't there, you'd have an argument. But just saying you don't HAVE to use it, doesn't mean crap.



    Comes from alchemy originally, D&D gets their ideas from previous sources too.
    Never said anything to the contrary. But this game and other MMOs were based off of D&D.

    You're talking about western traditions only. In eastern traditions magic (chi) is internal and done without any materials required.
    ??? This game was made by a western company??? So of course I'm talking about western traditions. Chi is a different type of magic altogether and wasn't in the game until the additions of Pandaren, who use chi. Every other spellcaster did not, and they used reagents. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you suggesting that because one type of real world magic doesn't use reagents then no type of magic has to? Because I don't know what this has to do with anything.

    Furthermore, if I were you, I'd do research before talking about a subject. Because eastern practices that use Chi, do use "reagents" of sorts. Feng Shui uses objects in a house to create positive Chi. Acupuncture uses needles. And there's another form (the name escapes me) which uses roots of plants and powders for healing. Not to mention the sects that use crystals/prisms to focus chi.


    Being annoying (soul shards, hunter ammo etc) made the game special in wrong way. Fixing design mistakes and 20 year old totally outdated design philosophies is a good thing.
    Wrong. It made you feel like you were doing something in order to increase your power. If you were a Warlock, you would go out into the wild and steal the souls of your fallen enemies so you can empower your spells with them. Now if you're a Warlock...you just have soul shards and they...let you use a few extra spells. The magic is literally gone. The background is gone. The immersion is gone.

    Same for ammo. You used to have to buy ammo/craft ammo/get a friend to craft ammo. If you ran out of ammo in combat, you'd need to rush back to town to get more, relying on your companion to defend you until you could get more. Now? nothing, really. You can just fire willy nilly without worrying about anything.

    If you can't see how not needing those things caters to the lazy player-base and kills immersion, then there's no point in having this discussion.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Not really. I think if you actually read my post, it had nothing to do with "dumbing down" of any kind...nor was that phrase used. Maybe you're projecting.
    "making the game easier" was your exact words. Did you honestly mean something else except "qq dumbing down bwaah" with it, and what was it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Yeah, using potions, regeneration, and other things. Doesn't mean it isn't there. Cooking and eating helps to create immersion. If it wasn't there, you'd have an argument. But just saying you don't HAVE to use it, doesn't mean crap.
    Point was and still is that having to feed hunter pets was the only exception to the rule of not having to feed anything else (warlock/shaman pets, noncombat pets, mounts or the characters themselves). Removing exceptions and having everything in the world follow same pattern is better for immersion than having some stupid exceptions that highlight choices made for game design reasons and not to make realistic world. And you can still feed your pet if you want. It's just not mandatory... Kinda like characters and food.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    ??? This game was made by a western company??? So of course I'm talking about western traditions.
    Don't use blanket statements if you don't really mean it. All it takes is one counterexample to prove it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Wrong. It made you feel like you were doing something in order to increase your power.
    No. It was a chore required to play your class. Something that not all classes had. For the reason of parity (correcting game design mistakes) it needed to go.

  11. #111
    Bloodsail Admiral ScourgeSlayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Immersion is feeling as though you're actually part of the world instead of just playing a character in the world.

    AKA the thing they do their best to kill with every expansion and disguise it as "making the game easier/quality of life."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Some things that helped immersion that they removed:

    (1) Feeding pets
    (2) Getting Ammo
    (3) Using reagents (all types)
    (4) Having to go and purchase your spells/learn new ones from trainer
    (5) etc.
    Quests to learn spells also. I think there were a few of those. WoW sacrificed Immersion for convenience.

  12. #112
    Hi man just read your post regarding immersion. Nice thread it turned out to be! Anyways I would like to throw out a suggestion for one of the best experience's ive had regarding games. "Brothers: A tale of two sons" on steam. Not expensive. 2-3 hours gameplay, and play it in one session. Look some on youtube first if you'd like. Just a tip even if you dont care. Take care

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    "making the game easier" was your exact words. Did you honestly mean something else except "qq dumbing down bwaah" with it, and what was it?
    If you read the post, you'll understand the context. I was saying by making the game EASIER they killed immersion. Had literally 0 to do with "dumbing down" your words, not mine. Please stop projecting.


    Point was and still is that having to feed hunter pets was the only exception to the rule of not having to feed anything else (warlock/shaman pets, noncombat pets, mounts or the characters themselves).
    Shaman and Warlock MINIONS are not pets. They're demons/elementals - and to my knowledge, don't need to be fed. And if they do need to be fed, they feed themselves while they're in their realms. They don't exist in our realm naturally. They're summoned to do our bidding.

    Removing exceptions and having everything in the world follow same pattern is better for immersion than having some stupid exceptions that highlight choices made for game design reasons and not to make realistic world. And you can still feed your pet if you want. It's just not mandatory... Kinda like characters and food.
    Except the game started with it, so since it's not there any more the immersion is lessened. Do you not understand that concept? It has nothing to do with the fact of "X" is needed for immersion to exist. It has to do with the fact of "X" existed, now that "X" is gone, immersion is decreased.



    Don't use blanket statements if you don't really mean it. All it takes is one counterexample to prove it wrong.
    Now I know you're trolling. I not only countered your argument, but gave examples to prove you wrong. It's rather convenient to not quote the parts that make your argument look flawed.


    No. It was a chore required to play your class. Something that not all classes had. For the reason of parity (correcting game design mistakes) it needed to go.
    You can call it whatever you want.

    Personally, yes it was annoying at times, but it was one of the things that made the class UNIQUE and added flavor. With it removed, immersion was reduced.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ScourgeSlayer View Post
    Quests to learn spells also. I think there were a few of those. WoW sacrificed Immersion for convenience.
    Exactly.

    And this is the problem. The next generation of gamers who are all about convenience and winning by playing, not playing to win.

  14. #114
    Bloodsail Admiral ScourgeSlayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Exactly.

    And this is the problem. The next generation of gamers who are all about convenience and winning by playing, not playing to win.
    WoW has already taken even more steps to remove immersion and replace it with convenience with store 90s. It really takes the RPG out of MMORPG. Then again I don't expect much Immersion in MMOs so that's a given.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    If you read the post, you'll understand the context. I was saying by making the game EASIER they killed immersion. Had literally 0 to do with "dumbing down" your words, not mine. Please stop projecting.
    Those changes were made for various reasons, most of which were not to make it easier but less stupid. I'm pretty sure you understand the difference. If you choose to make a point about "making the game easier" then there's no other way to read it than "qq dumbing down bwaah" unless you want me to read something else from between the lines?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Shaman and Warlock MINIONS are not pets. They're demons/elementals - and to my knowledge, don't need to be fed. And if they do need to be fed, they feed themselves while they're in their realms. They don't exist in our realm naturally. They're summoned to do our bidding.
    Noncombat pets, mouints and the characters themselves which was the other, more important half of the list you conveniently dropped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Except the game started with it, so since it's not there any more the immersion is lessened. Do you not understand that concept? It has nothing to do with the fact of "X" is needed for immersion to exist. It has to do with the fact of "X" existed, now that "X" is gone, immersion is decreased.
    For players who start the game today, or anytime after WLK the immersion is stronger now because there are no exceptions to the feeding. In your case it's probably more nostalgia than actual immersion problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spastic_Dreamer View Post
    Now I know you're trolling. I not only countered your argument, but gave examples to prove you wrong. It's rather convenient to not quote the parts that make your argument look flawed.
    What? You said all magic use reagents and I pointed out eastern traditions do not which shoots down your blanket statement. And that makes me a troll?
    Last edited by fixx; 2014-07-20 at 08:17 AM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    Those changes were made for various reasons, most of which were not to make it easier but less stupid. I'm pretty sure you understand the difference.
    There's nothing to suggest that those things being in the game were "stupid" except your word. What exactly made them stupid? Because they required work? They were tedious? They made you go out of your way? What exactly warrants them being stupid?

    If you answered yes to any of the above reasons, you're part of the problem.

    If you choose to make a point about "making the game easier" then there's no other way to read it than "qq dumbing down bwaah" unless you want me to read something else from between the lines?
    They made the game easier for the instant gratification crowd. That hurt immersion.

    There's no hidden messages.

    Noncombat pets, mouints and the characters themselves which was the other, more important half of the list you conveniently dropped.
    I already said that you can feed your character through cooking and random food in the world. Just because you don't HAVE to is a moot point. The function exists. You didn't HAVE to feed your pets, either. If you did, you gained their trust and they did more damage. Cause and effect.

    Cause: feed pet
    Effect: more trust, more damage

    Cause: feed yourself
    Effect: healing/mana regen/buffs

    In either case, immersion exists.

    For players who start the game today, or anytime after WLK the immersion is stronger now because there are no exceptions to the feeding. In your case it's probably more nostalgia than actual immersion problem.
    Huh? This makes 0 sense.

    What? You said all magic use reagents and I pointed out eastern traditions do not which shoots down your blanket statement. And that makes me a troll?
    And I pointed out that eastern magic DOES use reagents. Which shoots down your entire point because you know nothing about the topic you speak of. You're conveniently ignoring the points I made against your argument because it makes you look ignorant. So yes, that makes you a troll.

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