Responses from Celestalon on beta warrior changes

[Secondwind]

People are harping too much on the "hit wildstrike a bunch" thing. Seriously, Wildstrike's .5s gcd means that hitting 8 wildstrikes literally takes less time than hitting 3 other gcds. Would you be flipping your shit if once in a blue moon you had to hit a button 3 times in a row? Of course not. Because most specs already do that on a very regular basis.

Wildstrike you have to hit more, but you don't spend significantly more time hitting it than normal.



That said I wonder how it would work out with Wildstrike at 60 rage, 1.5s gcd, and 2-3x damage, but raging blow rage increased to 20-30.

[Deleted]

People are harping too much on the "hit wildstrike a bunch" thing. Seriously, Wildstrike's .5s gcd means that hitting 8 wildstrikes literally takes less time than hitting 3 other gcds. Would you be flipping your shit if once in a blue moon you had to hit a button 3 times in a row? Of course not. Because most specs already do that on a very regular basis.

Wildstrike you have to hit more, but you don't spend significantly more time hitting it than normal.



That said I wonder how it would work out with Wildstrike at 60 rage, 1.5s gcd, and 2-3x damage, but raging blow rage increased to 20-30.

The 0.5sec GCD makes it fucking worse. Spamming a free attack with no CD/GCD 25 times in a row wouldn't be fun either. Except that you could macro it.

[Mancowski]

I'd personally love WW back in single target rotation for Fury.

I always questioned why they moved it out. Because Fury should feel a little reckless with the abilities it uses, and WW is the most reckless looking ability in their arsenal.

[Krazzorx]

I want to see their response on the 0.5 second GCD as they basically haven't said much other than "we are watching" since its implementation.

[Secondwind]

The 0.5sec GCD makes it fucking worse. Spamming a free attack with no CD/GCD 25 times in a row wouldn't be fun either. Except that you could macro it.

Different situations. A no gcd no resource attack is something you spam without thought. Wildstrike is something you do need to actively choose when to use, the only question is how much you use it. It is a rare situation where it is optimal (or even possible) to use as often as Celestalon suggested in that tweet. Literally the situation provided was "You are rage capped, have 2 RB charges, bloodsurge is procced, BzR is off cooldown, and CS just came available", that's not a thing that is going to be happening constantly. You might see it happen once a fight. It's not as though you're expected to be spamming wildstrike nonstop throughout the fight while never pressing anything else. Nevermind that even in the absolute worst case scenario you've still got at least 2 more gcds inside the CS window, and in most cases you have more. Nevermind that outside that CS window you will be hitting other abilities far more frequently.

You people are taking a rare situation and painting it as the core of the rotation. All that does is make anyone with decision making power discount your opinions as uninformed and ignorant. It takes any useful feedback you might have, and makes it worthless. There are legit problems with the .5s gcd wildstrike, and the current design in general. But harping on like this about spending ~4s of time to utilize your resources is absurd.

[Deleted]

What part of "hit wildstrike 10 times in a row" feels great to you?

I can't understand how anyone with more than 3 braincells would find that fun or solid? It's fucking on-par with Arcane mages, there's no depth, no rage management and nearly nothing to track at all.

And what is so different about that if you have heroic strike instad? You still use the same spell again.
That is why I said WS might need a higher ragecost with more damage to compensate for that fact.

But Heroic Strike is not needed.

[Unholyground]

What part of "hit wildstrike 10 times in a row" feels great to you?

I can't understand how anyone with more than 3 braincells would find that fun or solid? It's fucking on-par with Arcane mages, there's no depth, no rage management and nearly nothing to track at all.

I agree, I wanted to play my warrior but I hit 90 and nooooope lol. Ill stick to my Frost DK, at least is consistently 3 buttons and some cooldowns :P

[Juni]

What part of "hit wildstrike 10 times in a row" feels great to you?

I can't understand how anyone with more than 3 braincells would find that fun or solid? It's fucking on-par with Arcane mages, there's no depth, no rage management and nearly nothing to track at all.

I dont get it either, but at least these casuals get their wish.

But as was said previously, the changes require u to control your rage waaay more than before and you're going to have to think a lot more about it than before, so if anything, u become less "furious", and I fail to see what's so furious about just standing there for a few seconds (unless u spec UqT).

Fact is that the major issues with current MoP Fury was fixed with the static crit value on BT and CS glyph + IW. But apparently that wasn't good enough.

Their new design intentions for fury is complete rubbish as far as I can tell after trying it.

But I do find it hilarious that they made Glad stance into MoP fury though, that actually made me laugh really hard.

[Deleted]

I'm so fond of all these pseudo elitists who are crying something like "Oh no my class is going to be dumbed down because of one spell is missing, I can't make myself feel good anymore about the fact that I am the only one around capable of playing this extremely complicated class" ...
Gosh guys ... realy.

Of course not everybody is like that but this is what comes into my head as soon as I read someone talking abount dumbing down and class complexity ...

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I dont get it either, but at least these casuals get their wish.

But as was said previously, the changes require u to control your rage waaay more than before and you're going to have to think a lot more about it than before, so if anything, u become less "furious", and I fail to see what's so furious about just standing there for a few seconds (unless u spec UqT).

Fact is that the major issues with current MoP Fury was fixed with the static crit value on BT and CS glyph + IW. But apparently that wasn't good enough.

Their new design intentions for fury is complete rubbish as far as I can tell after trying it.

But I do find it hilarious that they made Glad stance into MoP fury though, that actually made me laugh really hard.

Hahahha awesome ... half of the players are argueing the class is being dumbed down, the other half it is going to be more complicated ... so clearly one side ... or probably both, don't know what they are talking about.

[Deleted]

I'm so fond of all these pseudo elitists who are crying something like "Oh no my class is going to be dumbed down because of one spell is missing, I can't make myself feel good anymore about the fact that I am the only one around capable of playing this extremely complicated class" ...
Gosh guys ... realy.

Of course not everybody is like that but this is what comes into my head as soon as I read someone talking abount dumbing down and class complexity ...

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Hahahha awesome ... half of the players are argueing the class is being dumbed down, the other half it is going to be more complicated ... so clearly one side ... or probably both, don't know what they are talking about.

And when i read your comment this is what comes to my mind:

"derp derp i want to mindlessly smash my buttons, because that feels so furious....tactical decision are for weaklings herpdiederp"

[Juni]

I'm so fond of all these pseudo elitists who are crying something like "Oh no my class is going to be dumbed down because of one spell is missing, I can't make myself feel good anymore about the fact that I am the only one around capable of playing this extremely complicated class" ...
Gosh guys ... realy.

Of course not everybody is like that but this is what comes into my head as soon as I read someone talking abount dumbing down and class complexity ...

- - - Updated - - -



Hahahha awesome ... half of the players are argueing the class is being dumbed down, the other half it is going to be more complicated ... so clearly one side ... or probably both, don't know what they are talking about.

Dumbed down can in many people's eyes mean "fewer buttons". Hell, u just did urself. I'm talking about for max performance, and it's going to be more difficult in WoD with current build than on live.

[Deleted]

Dumbed down can in many people's eyes mean "fewer buttons". Hell, u just did urself. I'm talking about for max performance, and it's going to be more difficult in WoD with current build than on live.

It´s going to be mechanically more difficult due to the 0.5s GCD - which is stupid because you also are more lagprone than any other class in that case.
But tactically its going to be completly dull. No long term thinking has to be done.

[Bizerk]

He knows he cant provide a good argument so he decides to piss off the people who care and can actually do math instead.

[Juni]

It´s going to be mechanically more difficult due to the 0.5s GCD - which is stupid because you also are more lagprone than any other class in that case.
But tactically its going to be completly dull. No long term thinking has to be done.

I was thinking more in the line of having to think about ur gcds considerably more than before as u dont have hs to dump rage IF u get 2-3 AA crits and suddenly sit on a ton of rage.

[Trubo]

The glyph makes CS an 20 sec debuff with a 20 sec cooldown, so I don't see the point of pooling rage anymore but just using it when you have it.
Which should also counter against the issue of button sensetivity or lag.

I fail to see where the doomsday like issue is that some people are advocating.

Personally I hoped that they would get rid of CS which leads to all the issues and bake the damage into our normal skills. Maybe Bloodthirst which hits like a wet noodle.

1. The CS glyph is a damage loss compared to unglyphed at its current reduction.

2. WS at 0.5 second GCD means that you notice when you're lagging even with ~100 ms. Try doing that rotation with more and you either shoot off more WS than intended or the ability just doesn't trigger.

3. No off the GCD ability means that we commonly run into the issue of Bloodsurge procs at high rage making us overcap Rage unless you're constantly dumping rage into WS even if that means ignoring better abilities such as BT (no Enrage for you), SB (no Rage cost), RB (our strongest ability costing rage), or saying it screw it to the CS window (I can understand people hating CS windows though why not just remove CS instead of HS?).

4. Current MoP Fury suffered early expansion due to our Crit reliance on BT unlocking the rest of the rotation. It could have been fixed in a number of easier to tune ways, such as but not limited to making BT an auto-crit or making non-crit BT ALWAYS proc Bloodsurge. That way we'd always have something to press.

5. Such a short GCD on WS, to me at least, appears to be a trap to newer players thinking that it'll be better to use at all times because of short GCD and because it's not locked to being enraged to use like RB. That is counter-intuitive design that should be fixed.

I'd personally love WW back in single target rotation for Fury.

I always questioned why they moved it out. Because Fury should feel a little reckless with the abilities it uses, and WW is the most reckless looking ability in their arsenal.

Because a single target rotation shouldn't cause AoE CC break (PvP). DKs still suffer from this because HB > IT in all damage scenarios, IT is only better for dispelling (glyphed) and for not breaking other targets' CC.

I was thinking more in the line of having to think about ur gcds considerably more than before as u dont have hs to dump rage IF u get 2-3 AA crits and suddenly sit on a ton of rage.

But Juni, it shouldn't matter if you're at max Rage or not; you have something to press!

[Juni]

But Juni, it shouldn't matter if you're at max Rage or not; you have something to press!

Wasting resources.. Good class design right there.

[crious]

Different situations. A no gcd no resource attack is something you spam without thought. Wildstrike is something you do need to actively choose when to use, the only question is how much you use it. It is a rare situation where it is optimal (or even possible) to use as often as Celestalon suggested in that tweet. Literally the situation provided was "You are rage capped, have 2 RB charges, bloodsurge is procced, BzR is off cooldown, and CS just came available", that's not a thing that is going to be happening constantly. You might see it happen once a fight. It's not as though you're expected to be spamming wildstrike nonstop throughout the fight while never pressing anything else. Nevermind that even in the absolute worst case scenario you've still got at least 2 more gcds inside the CS window, and in most cases you have more. Nevermind that outside that CS window you will be hitting other abilities far more frequently.

You people are taking a rare situation and painting it as the core of the rotation. All that does is make anyone with decision making power discount your opinions as uninformed and ignorant. It takes any useful feedback you might have, and makes it worthless. There are legit problems with the .5s gcd wildstrike, and the current design in general. But harping on like this about spending ~4s of time to utilize your resources is absurd.

If you think that Heroic Strike on live is something you spam without thought, then you honestly don't know how to play Fury very well.

Heroic strike is used very frequently at high gear levels on live right now. Most of my globals are taken up by BT and RB, as well as dumping bloodsurge procs to pool rage. The sole function of HS is to make sure you don't rage cap, which means you're using it whenever you get to around 90 rage, and with a 570+ ilvl at 90 that scenario happens very frequently when geared properly.

Your argument of WS requiring more thought as to when to use it so you don't rage cap fails for the sole fact of it's unintuitive. Yes, you can spam WS at inopportune times where you have other procs available that -should- take a higher priority just so you don't rage cap, but that's not fun. I shouldn't have to ignore 2x RB procs during CS because I have 110 rage and will rage cap if I don't burn my bloodsurge proc and then blow 90 rage on WS by pressing it 6 times in a row. I'd rather have a tool that allows me to expend that rage while using my procs in that window.

Think of it like a monk that has too much haste. You don't want to have to spend energy to prevent being capped while you're at max chi when you -could- be spending your chi while your energy regenerates. As fury, you don't want to have to spend globals to dump rage to prevent being rage capped when you could be using your procs and dumping rage off the GCD while doing it.

I don't care about heroic strike, all I care about is that to rotation does not feel fluid when you have two resource systems (procs/rage) and you have to choose which one you utilize properly. In my example, the monk can avoid the problem by dropping haste in favor of another stat, while the fury warrior has no choice.

I'm not saying they can't iterate around this design, but as it stands on beta, the spec is dumb as hell.

[Secondwind]

If you think that Heroic Strike on live is something you spam without thought, then you honestly don't know how to play Fury very well.

I never said that it was. Go back and read the post I was responding to, they were talking about a hypothetical situation where you could spam an off the gcd attack nonstop.

[crious]

I never said that it was. Go back and read the post I was responding to, they were talking about a hypothetical situation where you could spam an off the gcd attack nonstop.

Apologies, I did misread.

[tempest420]

The problem that I, and presumably most "elitists", have with beta Fury is not that it is easy enough that you cavemen can do it. The problem, sans CS glyph, is that fury gameplay feels like the devs have no clue what they're doing. There isn't a semblance of direction of over-arching concept right now. At the risk of sounding like a tin-foil hat, to me, the new 45 talents reek of "oh shit heroicstrike.org is getting some serious traction, quick we need a band-aid!" While I agree that HS and WS are in direct conflict with each other, I really don't think the solution is to axe one and shove the other down our throats. Additionally, you can't have a rage dump that, one-third of the time, costs nothing. The end result is that we are literally swimming in rage to the point where you can completely ignore your rage bar (I sure as hell did).

My additional problem with this iteration is the whole concept of it. With regards to the Mop rotation, I like the fact that our most damaging abilities (rb and sb) have to be used intelligently. I dunno about the rest of you but I genuinely enjoyed Fury in T14-15, when crit was a much rarer commodity and you had to save rb charges for cs and always think a few seconds ahead. Obviously, having turbo-crit now makes a little easier but at least you still feel like you are using your biggest nukes when the boss is at his weakest moment. The beta rotation is the opposite. You basically yolo your rb charges and get as many ws inside a cs as you can. Damage tuning aside, this feels like death by a thousand cuts whereas I liked that before, my big damage abilities actually made all the difference.

I posted my thoughts in the beta thread on the official forums and the analogy I made there about increasing accessibility was a pretty solid one (I think). I got a much better this time though!

Blizzard: Let's burn every last work of Shakespeare because there are people out there that can't read.
While we're at it, let's kill all the people that are acting out his plays on the stage for the benefit of the deaf.









Ridiculous analogy, I know. Shut up caveman. In light of the state of Fury, I have to find my fun someplace else.