GW2: S02E03 The Dragon's Reach - Part 1

[Fencers]

It's an ideology, but it's also listed as a faith.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eternal_Alchemy

I don't think it is listed as a Faith. Ideology, yes. But that is neither a religion or Faith.

The only real references to TEA being believed in as a Faith is during the time of Guild Wars 1: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Alchemy

I feel like the way it's done in game the difference of religion or not religion is sort of moot.

Are these reference personal? As in are they referenced in the assumed personal view of a character? If so, they do not matter.

The Eternal Alchemy is simply not a religion or worshiped otherwise.

Edit: The Eternal Alchemy is not a science either. It can best be thought of as we would think of like; Middle Platonism, Hard Determinism or Open Theism. Which are not religions either, or Faiths. They are philosophical ideologies.

There is a huge difference in faith and belief.

[Rukh]

I don't think it is listed as a Faith. Ideology, yes. But that is neither a religion or Faith.

The only real references to TEA being believed in as a Faith is during the time of Guild Wars 1: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Eternal_Alchemy


Are these reference personal? As in are they referenced in the assumed personal view of a character? If so, they do not matter.

The Eternal Alchemy is simply not a religion or worshiped otherwise.

Edit: The Eternal Alchemy is not a science either. It can best be thought of as we would think of like; Middle Platonism, Hard Determinism or Open Theism. Which are not religions either, or Faiths. They are philosophical ideologies.

There is a huge difference in faith and belief.

Let me be a little more precise on this - "The Eternal Alchemy" would be equivalent to quantum physics in that it is a model for explaining reality. Quantum physics is a scientific model, with physics being the science. So not A science, the science would be Synergistics, but TEA would be "of science" in that Asura use scientific method to learn about it, including hypotheses, tests, etc.

Is there something in that you would disagree with?

[Fencers]

It's still a philosophical model. The Asuran can not "proof" TEA; thus why it is a belief, but not a faith. Science would need neither belief or faith.

What you are mistaking is the application of reason (or rationality) and scientific method to the study of TEA as Science. It is not any more than the ideologies of Parmenides, Zeno or Melissus.

TEA is (very basically) the Asuran philosophy and conception of Determinism and a fair bit of logos as it applies to deist epistemology. Most specifically in how the Asurans seek both an application of principle and their awareness of an indifferent process to the reality of creation.

This is specifically why these statements are made in the attitude and view of TEA by Asurans:

"Fate can't be tempted. It's part of the Eternal Alchemy, just like everything else. Days pass, the cogs turn, the future comes."

"Although the Asura do not know where this scheme will lead, they strive to figure out the Eternal Alchemy and its secrets. "

"While many do express awe or wonder at its complexity or its enigma, the asura generally see the appropriate response to the Eternal Alchemy to be a desire for understanding and mastery."

These statements are meant to parallel the actual real world philosophies TEA as a concept draws inspiration from. TEA is not a religion, science or faith; simply a philosophical ideology.

Edit: The Asurans are Historicist in a certain sense too. In that they have a certain relativist contextualizing of history and modality in an exegesis sense. Which is why the Asurans has such an abrupt, matter-of-fact and some what flip view of events and people.

If you played GW1 you see this type of personality trait brought about by a hard belief in the "Cogs" metaphor of TEA to be quite pronounced.

[Rukh]

It's still a philosophical model. The Asuran can not "proof" TEA; thus why it is a belief, but not a faith. Science would need neither belief or faith.

Actually science does require belief. Its just that science as a philosophy, dictates that you believe the evidence with the best support. It does not require faith and in fact rejects the notion.

[quote]What you are mistaking is the application of reason (or rationality) and scientific method to the study of TEA as Science. It is not any more than the ideologies of Parmenides, Zeno or Melissus. [/quote[

However, the Asura are also all about performing experiments. They don't sit and think really hard about TEA, they study it. They use it as a model for how reality fits together. Again, like quantum physics.

This is specifically why these statements are made in the attitude and view of TEA by Asurans:
"Fate can't be tempted. It's part of the Eternal Alchemy, just like everything else. Days pass, the cogs turn, the future comes."
"Although the Asura do not know where this scheme will lead, they strive to figure out the Eternal Alchemy and its secrets. "

In this instance I can agree with you. It does look like they use it as a philosophy also.

These statements are meant to parallel the actual real world philosophies TEA as a concept draws inspiration from. TEA is not a religion, science or faith; simply a philosophical ideology.

TEA is whatever the writers decide to make it They can draw inspiration from all sorts of places.

For instance, we went in to Omadd's machine and we "saw" the eternal alchemy. We didn't see a philosophy, we saw a depiction of the cogs behind reality. They may have used determinism as an inspiration, but it's pretty clear that, at least in guild wars 2, they're beyond that. Whatever they did in GW1 you need to take with a grain of salt, because this is not guild wars 1 and they have modified the lore in a lot of areas.

So I agree with you, they do use it as a philosophy also, but its definitely more than that, it's what they view as the structure of reality, and they study it as science.

[Fencers]

No, that's not right. Belief is independent of truth. Science only seeks the truth of a reality, not the relation of truth to us. Which is philosophy.

You don't need to believe or even have a personal view of Electromagnetism. Electromagnetism is simply a force; a motion or matter in a pre-Socratic sense.

TEA may be a force, in a pre-Socratic sense again, but it is an Asuran belief. They have no proof nor can it be proofed. Theoretically, TEA is the same ephemeral Zeno's paradoxes ponder as non-being in perception of reality. This is once again expressed directly in the general Asuran attitude and view of the world in a highly contextual and relativist view of TEA.

And actually, the Asurans do think "really hard" about TEA. There are plenty among them that are just theorists or scholars of academics. It's simply that the more pragmatic outcomes of Asuran life are more, um, dramatic.

[Rukh]

No, that's not right. Belief is independent of truth. Science only seeks the truth of a reality, not the relation of truth to us. Which is philosophy.

Sure people can believe things that end up being wrong, but we are incapable of describing something as truth without believing it to be true. If we say it is true that things fall due to gravity, it is because we believe things fall due to gravity. Science is the structure of our observation. It is models based on what we believe to be true. It has no direct truth any more than we do.

You don't need to believe or even have a personal view of Electromagnetism. Electromagnetism is simply a force; a motion or matter in a pre-Socratic sense.

No, electromagnetism is our description on how we believe the force to work. We do not have direct knowledge of reality, only our experiences and the beliefs we draw from those experiences.

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I want to point out I think I was wrong about the three axes thing. They were based on labels that someone else had mentioned, but I found the GW1 source and the labels are slightly different:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Facet

This doesn't work well for opposing forces. It does however work well for a cycle of progression. Creation > Existence > Destruction > Death > Spirit > Illusion > back to creation.

Either way, you can get the idea that if you take one part out, the cycle becomes imbalanced.

[Deleted]

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Facet

This doesn't work well for opposing forces. It does however work well for a cycle of progression. Creation > Existence > Destruction > Death > Spirit > Illusion > back to creation.

Either way, you can get the idea that if you take one part out, the cycle becomes imbalanced.

I've totally forgotten about Facets! I don't know how but I have ;< (Another coincidence that Facets take dragon forms? I THINK NOT)

Anyway, they matches my previous labels xD But we still don't know much about gods and dragons and how they relate to each other.

I like your theory about cycle but I wonder about "spirit". How do you understand that in your cycle? As a hope of new life after destruction and death? Or as a 'material' spirit that you become in Underworld after death? And what was in that place before Kormir? (We know that Abaddon was also a god of elementalists... so maybe natural elements? But there was also an unnamed god before Abaddon, according to wiki)
And what would illusions mean in that cycle? And how would they lead to re-creation?
One more question - do you think that dragons represent that cycle as well? (Could that mean then that dragons = gods?) And what will happen now, when Zhaitan is defeated? Maybe a new dragon will appear to replace him? Like gods replace theirselves?
I'm pretty confused because we don't have enough info!

I also wonder... is it possible that there are more gods than The Six? (not counting Dhuum, Abaddon etc.) On a different planet, for example? (Lol, we still haven't fully explored our planet and I'm talking about others...)

[Fencers]

Sure people can believe things that end up being wrong, but we are incapable of describing something as truth without believing it to be true. If we say it is true that things fall due to gravity, it is because we believe things fall due to gravity. Science is the structure of our observation. It is models based on what we believe to be true. It has no direct truth any more than we do.

Not exactly. That is related to Zeno's paradoxes. The fault isn't in truth it is in the observation. Thus truth is independent to observation or perception.

Rationality is the structure of scientific belief. Which isn't Faith or religion, that require belief codependent on truth.

This is EXACTLY the Asuran process and attitude as demonstrated on all the GW games.

No, electromagnetism is our description on how we believe the force to work. We do not have direct knowledge of reality, only our experiences and the beliefs we draw from those experiences.

I specifically pointed to Eleaticism & pre-Socratic conceptions of matter and motion for a reason.

We can say that Electromagnetism is a truth. But our boundaries of that truth, force in a monist sense, are imposed by both language and perception. The latter two are the relation of force to us, Electromagnetism (whatever it's actual reality) is indifferent to this relation. Science can apply a term in observation and theory to a force, but the relation is purely philosophical epistemology to this day.

Totally in line with the Asuran view of TEA. They observe it and have ways to quantify TEA in some degree, but their view of TEA in relation to us is completely philosophical.

This isn't to say that TEA isn't a thing, or real, as such it may be within the fiction of GW. Though TEA itself is neither religion or science. To reiterate the application of scientific method the Asuran turn toward TEA is not anymore indicative of what TEA is than the application of scientific method to Electromagnetism. Specifically how the Asurans view TEA as a set of ideologies is not in of itself scientific, only worthy of scientific understand ing in the sense of natural philosophy.

[lawow74]

Back OT after much philosophical bafflegab: http://dulfy.net/2014/07/29/gw2-the-...eleases-today/ some tidbits about the patch.

[Kelimbror]

OOoooh:

Players will be able to start construction of a new back item that will grow and change as you adventure during these next two episodes. The Buried Locked Chests in Dry Top have also been updated once again to include one of three new kites: the Ventari Follower, Prosperity Mine and Crystal Shard. If the looks of these kites were not enough, these kite toys will also grant increased movement speed while players are carrying them!

That sounds pretty snazzy.

[Exroyal]

Completely offtopic, but reading Fencers posts makes me feel more intelligent.

OT: Sounds like those movement speed kites are mount-type toys?

[Kelimbror]

mount

Shh...don't say that word. It kinda is what they are, but people will start flipping tables. I imagine it's to account for waypoints going fubar. A fair compromise, and the buff likely isn't that crazy. No more than people's passives already have I imagine. In any case, pets/mounts that make you move faster are fine imo as long as they keep speeds in check. I'd actually like mounts in this game, but not for movement...just because they would look fantastic and be something to collect.

[Deleted]

I really like the backpack idea. I saw the picture. it's beautiful already

Not sure what those kites are meant to be, but it sounds interesting.

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Yeah I'm guessing maybe 25% movement speed max or something, and not able to use when in combat or something. It would be IDEAL for me, sadly I already did world completion on my mesmer xD

[Exroyal]

You're right, various words shouldn't be used in this game. Well i've always loved wp's, but "movement speed increasing item" would be welcomed.

[Rukh]

Not exactly. That is related to Zeno's paradoxes. The fault isn't in truth it is in the observation. Thus truth is independent to observation or perception.

The problem with using zeno's paradoxes is they rely on deception to make something seem like a paradox that isn't, heh. For the most common one, the tortoise, I had mad a graph at least 10 years ago to easily explain it. I wish I still had it, but it's been locked in an imageshack account I seem to no longer have access to. The lie in the paradox is of course, as Arastotle said, that each half-segment takes the same amount of time to cover, which it doesn't. It takes half the time of the previous until it approaches instantaneous to cover.

But no. "Truth" is not independent. Reality is independent. Truth is a judgment about whether a statement matches reality. We cannot have truth nor false for that matter, without perception. The idea of "truth" being some independent property hasn't been mainstream since neoclassical times. Nowadays we see that argument as redundant. Without an assertion, there is only is. Since you cannot have a "false" is, its redundant to have "true" when talking about "is". Its a full set. There is no bimodality to be had.

Realists and anti-realists argue whether a statement can be true in the first place if you can't verify it, but in all cases, the modern applicability of truth is whether a statement matches "is".

Rationality is the structure of scientific belief. Which isn't Faith or religion, that require belief codependent on truth.

I can agree with you on that.

We can say that Electromagnetism is a truth. But our boundaries of that truth, force in a monist sense, are imposed by both language and perception. The latter two are the relation of force to us, Electromagnetism (whatever it's actual reality) is indifferent to this relation. Science can apply a term in observation and theory to a force, but the relation is purely philosophical epistemology to this day.

This is redundant.

Totally in line with the Asuran view of TEA. They observe it and have ways to quantify TEA in some degree, but their view of TEA in relation to us is completely philosophical.

Here's where your argument falls apart, because you inset "completely", and that is simply untrue. Its not because they employ scientific method to the thing, you can employ scientific method to all sorts of things. Your argument falls apart because it is also a "thing", it exists, in the fantasy world as a label for the workings of the universe, physically. In that way, it is more akin to physics.

Asura certainly use it as a deterministic philosophy, but they also use it as a whole field for constructing their believe about the actual material construct of the universe.

[NightZero88]

Can we take the scientific argument out of the thread and actually focus on the patch please? Kind of a pain to have to skip through posts about scientific belief and what not that has no bearing on the thread.

[Rukh]

Sorry!

Should be in just a few minutes. Unfortunately the summaries given from other news sources seem to imply not much is going to be answered at this time. Our characters seem to be much more focused on what to do about Mordy than why Mordy is, heh.

[Deleted]

Well I expected the patch to be here already...

[NightZero88]

Well I expected the patch to be here already...

Yeah, I'm at work for another 2 hours so I was hoping to get some info about the patch like I always do.

[Rukh]

I know they had a payment issue they tweeted where the previous (current) episode was trying to charge people for it, maybe they're doing a once-over of the payment system before release.