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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Fang7986 View Post

    Nobody I've met since I started during BC has said they like attunements, just that they hated them.
    I'm just giving my opinion obviously. I'm sure people hated them, but I don't recall having that sentiment. It was sort of annoying I guess for alts to get into raids, so I can see that. But it also meant that you didn't get fresh players with no experience whatsoever trying to raid. It at least forced them to go through some of the lower content to get used to the game first.

    I'm hoping proving ground requirements in WoD will be similar.

  2. #62
    Scarab Lord Mokoshne's Avatar
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    adding 5mans over the course of the expansion isn't a terrible thing. I always looked forward to them, and with a lack of them in MoP it was noticable feature that was missing.

    I like that they use similar art work to the raid, sort of like an addendum to the raid. A way of telling other stories and gearing up alts.
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  3. #63
    The Lightbringer SL1200's Avatar
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    I enjoy 5 man content. To me its the most fun activity in the game. I hope they give us a lot of it in Wod and other future expansions. I think Mop made a big mistake by not having any 5 man content other than what was included at launch.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelanor View Post
    I've been reading a couple of posts from the official forums where people were complaining that the lack of 5 man dungeons was a big turnoff these past two expansions, and it looks like it will be for a third. There hasn't been an official reply to the thread yet, but I imagine it'd say something along the lines of a philosophy change/would cost a raid tier type thing. So I just wanted your opinions, do you think Blizzard should dedicate finite resources, and we need to be honest, they are finite, away from raiding and to more 5 man content? Personally, I was a fan of 5 man content, I enjoyed being a geared tank or healer running them just for fun, and even though you did them for a whole expansion, when there are 10 of them, it doesn't get old.

    On a side note, did scenario's fail miserably?
    Yeah, the reason why there isn't more 5 man dungeons or scenarios is that they take too much effort for the benefit they bring to the game. A raid instance is used by pretty much every pve interested player and keeps them playing for months. Most players probably see each dungeon a few times, but not more. Now, I don't know how to solve that problem, but without one, I doubt we'll see more dungeons.

  5. #65
    My personnal opinion about 5 men right now, they are not usefull,
    The gear is outdated and valors are almost useless,
    You can get ilvl 496 from the island, yesterday I just hit lvl 90 and I have gathered all slots with my other toons. So no need to for 5 mens. My toon is ilvl 496 in each slots exept for the weapon
    I would rather prefere doing LFR for a chance on weapon and a little bit of valor.


    Most of the people, I think are farming heroics 5 mens for justice point then convert into honnor, it's much faster to gather justice that way, at least on my battlegroup

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoshne View Post
    adding 5mans over the course of the expansion isn't a terrible thing. I always looked forward to them, and with a lack of them in MoP it was noticable feature that was missing.

    I like that they use similar art work to the raid, sort of like an addendum to the raid. A way of telling other stories and gearing up alts.
    Watcher, the lead encounter designer remarked some months ago, that he wasn't happy with how adding 5 man dungeons in the middle of a expansion worked out.
    Adding dungeons with better rewards leads players to only ever run the new dungeons and obsoletes the old dungeons. Whereas keeping the reward the same, is also strange since the newer dungeons would be much harder.

  7. #67
    Epic! fengosa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InfusOnWoW View Post
    Watcher, the lead encounter designer remarked some months ago, that he wasn't happy with how adding 5 man dungeons in the middle of a expansion worked out.
    Adding dungeons with better rewards leads players to only ever run the new dungeons and obsoletes the old dungeons. Whereas keeping the reward the same, is also strange since the newer dungeons would be much harder.
    Yeah I thought there was some talk about updating old dungeon gear if new ones came out to solve this issue. Not sure if they've made any decisions on that front but it is definitely one way to solve that problem.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Phuongvi View Post
    My personnal opinion about 5 men right now, they are not usefull,
    The gear is outdated and valors are almost useless,
    You can get ilvl 496 from the island, yesterday I just hit lvl 90 and I have gathered all slots with my other toons. So no need to for 5 mens. My toon is ilvl 496 in each slots exept for the weapon
    I would rather prefere doing LFR for a chance on weapon and a little bit of valor.


    Most of the people, I think are farming heroics 5 mens for justice point then convert into honnor, it's much faster to gather justice that way, at least on my battlegroup
    You know how you make 5-mans useful again? Get rid of the mindless band-aid catchup mechanism that is Timeless Isle and instead patch in one or two new 5-mans between major raid patches. In TBC there was Magister's Terrace, WotLK had PoS/FoS/HoR, and Cata had ZA/ZG and the End Time ones. Those instances were all fairly challenging when they were current content and rewarded players with epic quality that was slightly better than the older tiers, but worse than the current tier. This incentivized players to do these instances, and because they were appropriately challenging, they felt much more rewarding than Timeless Isle ever did.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by sethman75 View Post
    Get rid of LFR and scenarios and put in a dozen or more really cool 5 mans.

    Each major patch adds 3 more.

    Put in some cool gear and its a win all round.

    I hate how they destroyed 5 mans, it was the coolest thing about end game back in WOTLK for peeps like me who did not raid regularly.
    Hell yeah!

    LFR sucks sweaty donkey balls and scenarios are group quest replacements that serve no one.

    We could really use some more cool 5-mans, not like the MOP shit or Wrath faceroll, but real dungeons like BRD or at least like in TBC!

  10. #70
    As someone who likes to heal 5 man dungeons yes I think they should spend more time on 5 man content than raids. 5 man content is more accessible and in a lot of ways more fun. When you have less people each person's contribution is worth more. I also think that all 5 man content, not just challenge modes, should have a cap on gear levels so that we don't outgear them so quickly that they become a complete joke. Higher gear levels should make it easier to a certain extend but not so easy that you can ignore all the boss mechanics. There is something very special about small group content. Isn't playing with others what an mmo is all about? If you look back at what you actually did in the golden era expansions of wow like TBC and WoTLK isn't it probably true that you spent a huge amount of your time in 5 man dungeons? 5 mans are what made this game great!

    I think they are making a serious mistake with not putting more emphasis on 5 mans. 5mans are the bread and butter of this game, at least for someone like me. It really makes no sense to me and I can't understand what kind of internal data they have that lead them to the conclusion that people don't enjoy 5 mans. Although... they haven't really made GREAT 5 mans since WoTLK. There were a few memorable ones in Cata, but I disliked most of the MoP 5 mans.

    Regarding Scenarios: I hate them. They way they are implemented is seriously just stupid. Why have a game with the holy trinity and then make group content that effectively leaves out the two roles that are made to play with groups? As a healer, I feel incredibly useless in a scenario. Since they are designed to be run without a healer, I contribute nothing. Scenarios should have been designed to replace group quests and not became a part of end game progression or things you run over and over.
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  11. #71
    They are giving more emphasis on 5 mans compared to MoP when they completely abandoned it. How they will continue to update it though is to be seen (As they can just say "we never promised anything, it will cost a raid tier" and dump the plan)

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by snuzzle View Post
    It's about ensuring there's a decent enough pool of players to choose from so the queues aren't ridiculous
    You evidently don't understand the math behind group forming. It doesn't matter if there are 100 people in queue or 100,000 people in queue, the wait time will be entirely dependent upon the ratio of roles within the queue. Having a "decent pool or players" won't affect your queue time in any way if the ratio of roles is the same.

  13. #73
    5 man dungeons where the biggest disappointment in Mop, at least for me... i never really understood the purpose of scenarios or why people enjoy them.
    I still have some of the best experiences in Wow doing 5 man content, i was sad to see it being left behind

  14. #74
    Personally I feel that the vanilla endgame dungeons got it right.

    URBS, LBRS, Scholo, and Strat: Doable with 10-15 people, with quests for 5man'ing. It was like an early version of today's flex. If they did more of this sort of hybrid between 5man and mini-raids it could be great for the non-raiders. They could learn the encounters in LFR, and if they were up for a challenge, they could assemble a group and try it 5man. Of course the rewards would have to be aligned with the difficulty, which always seems to be the problem isn't it?

    I have always loved small group content in the many years I have played. Elite quests (2-3 man), the whole idea of questing in an area and eventually getting all the quests to "finish it" in an instance. Even the crazy long quest chains like the Hinterlands->ZF->Sunken Temple questline with the mallet, egg, and spider worldelite. It made leveling enjoyable, and not just a timesink on the way to level cap.

    However, I think the point that killed the 5man content was the dungeon finder. The moment you no longer had to be part of a pre-formed group it opened up for all sorts of retardness and griefing. The ICC 5mans just made it even more obvious how bad the idea was. You put people randomly together in a group, then tossed them into some of the hardest heroics seen in the game. Recipe for disaster. Or more historically correct: recipe for the neverending nerfbat to dungeon difficulty. Since that patch in WotLK, the team has been busy removing any kind of possible roadblock for a group full of tards. My guess is to stop the LFD being used to farm by premades (like it was during WotLK). Because if nobody is carrying the bad players without social skills, they never get to see the content and will eventually fail so bad at the game that they unsub.
    LFR is the sad continuation of this path. It is like they realized that 5 players is not enough to ensure carrying of the skill-less. So they bumped it up to 25, because the likelihood of 25 random players having enough skilled players to carry the rest is much higher. Then added the determination buff, to make sure that the only thing you needed to succeed was to have endless amounts of persistence.

    Unfortunately the non-raiding endgame has somewhere down the line gotten flagged as the content that is to keep the subs high. Like they have decided that players who care about challenge will be in raiding/PvP either way, so they do not need to make challenging non-raid content.

    I think the most tell-tale sign of this lack of challenge is the amount of alts people have these days. Back in vanilla you were pretty hardcore if you had more than 2 lvl60 characters. Especially if it was characters you played and geared. Now it is more the rule than the exception to have multiple lvl90's all raid-geared.

  15. #75
    Magister's Terrace and the Icecrown dungeons were reasonably difficult (on heroic), so, personally, I liked that they were added. The new Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman were similar, though it got tedious running them after a while. The dragon soul dungeons were too easy imo, so they became boring fast.

    So I guess what I'm getting at is that I would like more dungeons added, as long as they provide a challenge or else offer no better gear then current ones. Otherwise it just narrows a choice of easy/boring instances.

  16. #76
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethman75 View Post
    Get rid of LFR and scenarios and put in a dozen or more really cool 5 mans.

    Each major patch adds 3 more.

    Put in some cool gear and its a win all round.

    I hate how they destroyed 5 mans, it was the coolest thing about end game back in WOTLK for peeps like me who did not raid regularly.
    See..this is what I don't get. You don't like raiding, so LFR has to go? WTF? In WotLK, raiders complained that all their "hard work" was obliterated with the next 5 mans and you got gear almost superior to raid gear (and on par with 10 man raiding)

    There are many arguments on the table, why does it always have to be just the one. And how many 5 mans do you even want? 15 at the start and every patch adds 3? And "really cool ones", yeah I am sure there is a "really cool" button somewhere. As always people will hate some and like some.

    So..next point: You don't raid. So your 3 new 5 mans after a patch have what difficulty? Targeted at who? A raider will faceroll them, a guy who always only does 5 mans will fail if they are tuned beyond fresh lv 100 content even in the first patch. So..what really is the point? How do you tune them? Who are they targeted at?

    Or do you say: Raiders get raids, the middle crowd gets 5 mans exclusively for them? Fair enough.
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  17. #77
    One of the contributing reasons I stay unsubbed is because of lack of dungeons.

    - Provides leveling and end-game content. Since I don't raid any more (guild no longer plays) Dungeons would be significant as end-game content
    - Dungeons provide the group experience. You can't really play a role (tank, heals) in regular leveling content
    - Better challenge than questing. Questing is something you do once or twice for the story and achievements.
    - Better rewards than questing and decent EXP gains through killing mobs

  18. #78
    Personally I find the comment: "5 mans become absolete after the first tier of the new expansion has been completed" - utterly retarded.

    Why do I think that?
    Well why do you currently and since TBC (in vanilla it was different) do 5 mans after the first tier? Oh yeah, you got Valor points or badges.
    Why did they do this?
    Well why else would you continue to run these dungeons? If there is nothing in them to collect or use, dungeons would be done with indeed right after the first tier.

    I don't like LFR either. Ofcourse I have been doing it for a while, because I have to if I wish to progress my character apart from actual raiding, which I don't do anymore.

    So what is let for people like me?
    Well the 5 mans are left. I loved dungeoneering since Vanilla. I loved them even more during the periods were they were considered a challenge (Vanilla/TBC/WOTLK last tier dungeons/Cata-prenerf).

    I dislike easy 5 mans. I dislike it that all the old dungeons that used to be challenging, can now be done so quick that picking up loot is the real challenge (if you had to do it like before). I mean you rush through dungeons now and the healer is the a leech basically.

    And what is this about the end tier WOTLK dungeons beeing too hard. Are you serious? Yes many pugs failed. Ever checked the itemlevel of people being invited to these dungeons through the system? They were horrid. People with questing greens and some low blues. Oh yes they had some nice items in their bags possibly to get passed the itemlevel check.

    So what was actually broken? The system and the players mentality to think they could just leech/be carried not the difficulty of the dungeons.

    It pisses me off so much that this is brought up everytime when the difficulty had nothing to do with it.

    Same thing during Cata. Only this time I have to agree that those dungeons at heroic (not normal) were pretty hard for newbies. But seasoned veterans regardless if they were in the same guild or not, could easily make it. I had no issues whatsoever after I did them with my own guild first.

    But thats also the thing isn't it. People these days are in guilds to benefit from the fecking guildbonuses. They aren't in a guild to be a part of a community. I am not talking about raiding guilds here. For those players it was pretty easy to complete heroics in Cata prenerf. I am talking about those guilds that spam you with some fecking addon to get your ass invited. Those guilds aren't a community. You know what I mean.

    So yes first go with a set group to get some experience handling them, then go queue. Sure you still are bound to SOMETIMES fail with a group. But really guys, is it that annoying to just fail? Does it always have to be a win? It does nowadays doesn't it? There is no challenge or chance of failure anymore is there? It's an automatic win (see LFR and the current 5 mans).

    Luckily there still is heroic/mythic. But to be honest if you are in a very good guild with fine players, those modes aren't atleast until the final boss, not a big hurdle either. I can't remember when we wiped for more then 160 times before I downed a boss. Do you? Last time for me was The Lich King 25 man heroic and Anub heroic 25 man. Also end tier bosses.

    From my pov this game has gotten worse and worse. I am currently unsubbed and have preordered WoD, but if I could undo that preorder, I would.

    Anyone got any tips on that?

  19. #79
    For me, 5-man content has always been the most fun. It's the perfect group size because you can make a big difference by being good at your role or just having good gear, on the other hand if you're new or still gearing up you can go along without weighing the rest down too much.

    I'm not a fan of scenarios in their current form. They can be fun, but if you have 1 person who sucks (which happens when you use LFD) that can be a real pain if the others are good but not too well geared. I like the objective system and all, and it was a perfect system to incorporate the arena quests we've had since BC, but they should use scenarios to go with quests, perhaps make some solo scenarios. I felt like they used scenarios in MoP as a replacement for some 5-man dungeon content and that just didn't interest me. Also, there were just way too many of them.

    I could live with some heroic endgame scenarios, but having regular level 90 scenarios made no sense to me. I would have scrapped those and instead made another 1 or two 90 dungeons.

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