1. #1

    [WoD Idea] Combat slow/fast OH game play differences like 2h/dw Frost

    Now, I have't fleshed this idea out fully and it certainly needs more balancing and the numbers are all there for the sake of being there, but I feel like doing something along these lines could spice up the Combat spec and fix some of the scaling and downtime issues it has.

    I think we can (almost) all agree that combat has some extremely boring parts to it, especially early on in an expansion and even later on when not inside AR. The cost of Sinister Strike makes gaining combo points outside of Adrenaline Rush very slow, Adrenaline Rush scaling so well with haste also causes haste to be extremely valuable and causes some scaling issues where there's a bit too much disparity between fighting with and without Adrenaline Rush activated. Granted, AR does have its cooldown shortened every time you use a finisher, it still seems to be an unnecessary difference between uptime and downtime in abilities. Now, what if Adrenaline Rush was made a passive ability and the combat rogue was given a choice in varying playstyle?

    The idea stems from Frost DKs (and Fury warriors to a lesser extent) differences of gameplay and gearing when using a different weapon(s), so what if they extended a similar mechanic to combat rogues and their OH weapon choice of a slow sword/axe/mace/fist or a fast dagger in the off hand slot.

    This is where it gets into changing things:

    Remove Vitality

    Adrenaline Rush
    PASSIVE
    Increases the rogue's base energy regeneration by x%(50%?) and attack power by 40%
    Slice and Dice and Rupture have diminished effects baseline for the spec (modifiers below)

    Combat Potency
    Passive

    >While a dagger is equipped in the offhand slot, Slice & Dice's effect is increased to 60%, Sinister Strike costs 15 less energy and Main Gauche attacks restore 15 energy (5 second icd)
    >While a sword/axe/mace/fist weapon is equipped in the offhand slot, Sinister Strike deals 25% more damage, Rupture's effect does 100% increased damage, Eviscerate and Rupture have a 15% increased chance to critically strike. Rupture and Eviscerate critical strikes restore 25 energy (5 second icd).



    This is just a rough idea, but I with this method, a dagger OH would be likely to favor Mastery/Haste > Crit and a slow OH would favor Crit > mastery/haste.

    I was thinking of ways to make the play between Revealing Strike and Sinister Strike more interesting and engaging instead of Revealing strike simply placing a debuff on the target, but it seems they are toying with that already and I'll wait to see how it ends up.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2014-07-24 at 03:08 PM. Reason: no need for fancy size/fonts.

  2. #2
    Great, even more pigeonholing depending on dropluck.

    I don't like this. In fact, i support the idea of making away with daggers. Keep the models if you need rogue flavour, but change the item properties (and any dagger related differences in rogue skills) and be done with it.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  3. #3
    Those sound like very OP changes and that is WAY too much energy (in both versions). If you don't like the energy limitation of a rogue don't play a rogue.

    And I fully agree with Ymirsson. Normalize ALL 1h weapons to the same damage, speed, and normalization and remove all weapon restrictions for all specs. Doing this will also make agi daggers viable for enhancement, too.

  4. #4
    Even if the numbers would be adjusted (and they'd have to), blizzard prove time and time again that it is a hard and tedious work to make such mechanics work. Look at Frost DKs and their problems, look at how many Fury warriors actually play SMF instead of TG.
    I do like the idea, but i don't think it's worth the effort. And i don't think it's worth keeping 1.8 speed daggaers around in any scenario.
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  5. #5
    @shadowboy
    As I said, the numbers would need tuning, but it isn't WAY too much energy in itself.

    @ymirsson
    You are right, it would be hard to balance said ideas and give more RNG to drops and their stats.

    I do, however, stand by the idea of making Adrenaline Rush a smaller, passive energy regeneration skill for Combat rogues as to make the whole rotation more fluid.

    That could depend on how much rogues like having the trade off of a slow, "boring" pace during no cooldown and a very fast, "fun" pace with it up instead of a more pleasant overall pace. This would also go well with Blizzard's current theme of giving specs one inherent 3 minute damage cooldown each.


    @both
    I don't like the idea of getting rid of daggers, but I can see the benefits of it. I'd prefer if they made daggers desirable by classes/specs besides rogue's assassination and subtlety.

  6. #6
    High Overlord MrMayor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Normalize ALL 1h weapons to the same damage, speed, and normalization and remove all weapon restrictions for all specs. Doing this will also make agi daggers viable for enhancement, too.
    I would like to see some less weapon restrictions for rogue specs , but making all 1Handers the same just seems boring in my eyes.
    Ps: Take your stinking paws off my daggers, you d"#$ dirty shammy!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMayor View Post
    I would like to see some less weapon restrictions for rogue specs , but making all 1Handers the same just seems boring in my eyes.
    Ps: Take your stinking paws off my daggers, you d"#$ dirty shammy!
    The distinction only exists for flavor, and that flavor can come from each spec without needing to tie it up into weapons. Gameplay trumps flavor anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jSewell View Post
    I do, however, stand by the idea of making Adrenaline Rush a smaller, passive energy regeneration skill for Combat rogues as to make the whole rotation more fluid.
    I think AR should remain as a cooldown but its effect turned into true haste and diminished somewhat, so instead of 20% attack speed and 100% energy, turn it into 30-40% true haste. This lowers the regen ceiling which allows you to raise the regen floor (allowing sinister strike to return to being 40e and maybe even bringing back cata's 12.5% increased baseline regen).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jSewell View Post
    I'd prefer if they made daggers desirable by classes/specs besides rogue's assassination and subtlety.
    I don't see any advantage in that. And the problem is not that only sub and assa care about daggers, but that it's a binary choice. Either you have a dagger an can play those specs, or you don't and can't. Even worse it also is true in reverse for combat and slow weapons. And just like Frost and Fury, rogues are not happy in general about this arbitrary weapon/spec restriction. (Even though i think the problem is less severe for the other classes. Especially since i don't main them.)

    What if you could play Frost Mage with a sword, Arcane with a wand and Fire with a staff only?
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
    not quite Batman

  9. #9
    Absolutely awful idea. Like some one else mentioned, how many SMF warriors do you see? And when you do see one, its because they don't have 2h weapons. Doing this isn't giving us an actual option; it just means our current way can be replaced whenever tuning dictates. And from a flavor standpoint, screw that because it means there could be no spec at all that is optimal for dual wielding non daggers and I for one like being able to dual wield swords again now with transmog (sadly it took 3 tiers of transmog to have that happen).

    I like the idea of making them functionally identical. Then just let us transmog to any equippable weapon (though I guess still hold 1h to 1h and 2h to 2h) and everyone can be happy.

  10. #10
    The only reason daggers fell significantly behind slow OH this tier was because our set bonus favoured killing spree damage and thus slow off hands became stronger, the difference grew larger.

    Also I have over 21k haste so I attack ridiculously fast and have almost infinite energy anyway...

    Not sure why everyone is unhappy with how rogue plays, all 3 specs are fine so if you don't enjoy a class you shouldn't play it..
    Last edited by Zoydberg; 2014-07-26 at 08:45 AM.

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