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  1. #61
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kezotar View Post
    Stop trying to make a bigger investment vs a lesser one having a difference. They're both pay to win...
    You do understand the meaning of the word "win" right? It means coming first. It means being the best. I could even accept stretching that definition in this context to mean coming in near the top, or better than most. Winning is not making it into the 20th percentile, or coming 8 millionth out of 10 million.

    So, yes, both help to advance your character, but only one is pay to WIN, while the other is pay to not be the worst.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kezotar View Post
    It doens't matter if you get even a free heroic dungeon or even a heroic raid, pay to win.
    Oh yes it does! There is a world of difference between heroic dungeons and SoO hc because 95% percent of players have completed heroic dungeons while 95% of players haven't completed SoO hc. Completing one of the two makes you a "winner", while completing the other means pretty much nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kezotar View Post
    Even if you get from level 1-40 it's pay to win. In general, items you recieve that have benfits compared to other players, such as .. speed of leveling and items is pay to win.
    In general items you receive that benefits you compared to the players who are "winning" are pay-to-win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kezotar View Post
    Might I add, I'm not a PVE'r meaning that recieving a instant 90 is a huge win, all I have to do is do arena with buddies and I'm 2400 within hours and bis gear. That's clearly pay to win, and not smart use of game mechanics.
    So what is more important in this little example? The getting to 90 quickly bit, or the friends to boost you (combined with your personal skill level based on years of playing)? Because hell, I can easily get a character to level 90. Hell, I already have 3 level 90s. But I don't have a 2400 rating. I can spend as much money as I like on character boosts, but it ain't getting me any closer to winning an arena season than I already am. The best that a character boost can do is help to reduce the setback I would suffer from trying out a new class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Then again: Let the average Joe (even the not so average Joe) buy epic pve gear and I swear, Method, Paragon et al will still clear all raids faster in their normally attained gear. There are now people literally in ilv 560+ gear who still cannot clear heroic SoO - while top guilds did it in ToT gear
    While this point is true, consider the situation where either Method or Paragon decides to buy epic PvE gear and the other does not. Who do you think will win?

    Pay to Win is not defined according to whether an individual will win if they choose to use it. It's about not being able to win if you don't use it.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that being level 90 doesn't give you anything other than "not being not level 90."'
    False. It gives you an time boost over people who not use it. Allowing you to get to end game and the good gear faster. There for it gives you an clear advantage meaning it's pay to win. How bigof an advantage that is doesn't rly matter. an advantage is still an advantage no matter how small.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Said characters beneath level 90 have little bearing on the game, and people who aren't invested in leveling their character to level 90 as quickly as possible or doing end-game things probably aren't too bothered by the fact that you can buy them.
    First part is only half true. no everyone with characters below lvl 90 have no clue what's going on. I have plenty of below 90 characters and yes I hate the buy lvl 90 future. The second part is also not fully true. Just because people might not be interested in doing end game or leveling as quickly as possible doesn't mean that the don't care about the instant 90 future as it still gives people an unfair advantage to them and it also mean less people to enjoy before end game content with as they'll just mostly skip it buying instant 90's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Does buying a level 90 put you ahead of someone who's already level 90? No. In fact, come WoD, you'll be 10 levels behind max level anyway.
    Very shortsighted and the wrong comparison I must say. ofcourse an instant 90 isn't going to have an advantage over another person that is already level 90.

    Now take the next example though. Two guys challenge each other to an competition in which they have to get to end game and geared up as quickly as possible.

    person 1: Levels normally using every way possible to speed the leveling up but buying instant 90.

    person 2: just buys an instant 90 and is instantly 90 levels ahead of person 1.

    considering it takes person 1 a week to reach 90 himself. Person 2 just bought himself an advantage of an couple of days over person 1. Which then means it will get into heroics a couple of days before person one. It will join a raid gear an couple of days before person 1 etc etc. Maybe not an huge advantage still an advantage non the less. there for pay to win.

  3. #63
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post



    While this point is true, consider the situation where either Method or Paragon decides to buy epic PvE gear and the other does not. Who do you think will win?

    Pay to Win is not defined according to whether an individual will win if they choose to use it. It's about not being able to win if you don't use it.
    Yes, considered. I am also against selling gear, unless it is cosmetic. I think I am even ok with selling cosmetic transmogs of old tier sets (though I personally rather farm them myself)
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by label strew View Post
    False. It gives you an time boost over people who not use it. Allowing you to get to end game and the good gear faster. There for it gives you an clear advantage meaning it's pay to win. How bigof an advantage that is doesn't rly matter. an advantage is still an advantage no matter how small.
    An advantage that helps you to WIN is pay to win. How big the advantage is makes a critical difference.

    If we were to start a new arena season with conquest gear of ilevel 575, how would the existence of a level 90 boost affect the season winner?
    Given the same scenario, how would the existence of 575 gear available from the shop affect the season winner?

    If we were to start a new raid tier with gear ilevel 603, how would the existence of a level 90 affect the world first race?
    Given the same scenario, how would the existence of 603 gear available from the shop affect the world first race?

    Quote Originally Posted by label strew View Post
    person 1: Levels normally using every way possible to speed the leveling up but buying instant 90.

    person 2: just buys an instant 90 and is instantly 90 levels ahead of person 1.
    The problem with this argument is that Person 1 doesn't represent a real person trying to win an arena season or world first race. You enter that season/race with a level 90 who is already geared, with years of experience behind you to boot.

    A new player levelling from level 1 isn't a contender. Neither is a new player with an instant 90 boost. A player who wants to switch toons might be a contender but not because of the character boost. The boost is simply a means to help that person experience less of a setback due to changing toons.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    All evidence from Blizzard and their design direction seems to indicate that these players are more or less unimportant, so far as their experience being the core of the game. If leveling were indeed important, they would continue to update the leveling experience just as they update major end game content patches. Simply put, they do not do this.
    I have to disagree. Blizzard tweaks sub level cap content frequently and have even stated that sub level cap content is important to them. The expansion before this one is a pretty big testament to that as well. I can't imagine how much work was put into redoing all of Azeroth.

    So there's really no "arbitrary" factor about it, and it really shouldn't be that hard to see that. As I said to Kezotar, you might not agree with the design direction of allowing people to buy level 90s, but that's no reason to be obstinate for the sake of being obstinate.
    It's probably best to leave assumptions at the door. I was somewhat against the 90 boosts initially because it cheapens the overall experience, but I thought about it and decided that for a game that's nearing 10 years of service, it's probably a good time to do it. My only qualm is probably that new players might not get to experience the leveling journey the way we all did as some would probably decide they'd also rather 'jump to the action', but that's probably something Blizzard thought about as well when they made their decision. To call me obstinate is cheap, as you're not exactly budging from your point of view either.

    A very, very long time. Certainly more than the time it gets someone "trying" to get to level 90. Which again, is not the core of the game.
    Whether it's the core of the game is irrelevant. It's all part of your character's progression. From the moment you create your character you progress him towards whatever goal you set.

    In rated PvP? It's absolutely an advantage. The OP was talking about selling PvP gear as well as PvE gear.
    I personally think 'PvP gear' should either not exist at all or be freely available to everyone, providing it can only be used in BGs and arena, so for the sake of this argument I'm not really talking about PvP gear.

  6. #66
    Scarab Lord Moon Blade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skillslam View Post
    It's not pay to win because a raider/pvper can get the same gear the paying player gets.What makes the difference is the time spent to do so.
    False. Terrible players will never make Gladiator and never down a Heroic raid boss. Going into the Blizzard store and dropping $200 on full heroic gear or whatever when you and your peers had next to 0 chance of ever downing a single heroic boss, much more clearing an entire instance within the duration of the expansion itself cause you're all terrible, uncoordinated numbskulls is the very definition of pay to win. That gear is inaccessible to you because you aren't good enough to get it.
    If it's not an elf, leave it on the shelf.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templis View Post
    Blizzard tweaks sub level cap content frequently and have even stated that sub level cap content is important to them. The expansion before this one is a pretty big testament to that as well. I can't imagine how much work was put into redoing all of Azeroth.
    The content is important, but it's not really intended to be particularly challenging, nor is intended to form a competitive aspect of the game, at least not for a very long time now. Sub level 90 content is played for fun, not to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Templis View Post
    I was somewhat against the 90 boosts initially because it cheapens the overall experience, but I thought about it and decided that for a game that's nearing 10 years of service, it's probably a good time to do it. My only qualm is probably that new players might not get to experience the leveling journey the way we all did as some would probably decide they'd also rather 'jump to the action',
    Well the option is there either way. Of course it is possible that some new players will end up sabotaging their own game experience by skipping the content, and that is a shame for them, but still their choice. As Spock once said though, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one and this feature is definitely about catering to a need that this game has, both for existing players wanting to reroll to a different class and for new players who want to be able to play with friends.

  8. #68
    OP'ie is bad troll move along guys



    Infracted for flaming. Don't call other posters trolls. If you see a bad post, report it, and let moderators handle it.
    Last edited by xskarma; 2014-07-24 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #69
    Thanks for the entertainment. Soon enough buying martin thunder won't be p2w either.

  10. #70
    Image relevant:


  11. #71
    I'll totally bite.

    Let me preface this by saying Pay to Win is so ambiguous, and holds no concrete definition between genres, games or even players. Right now it just seems like some buzzword devs like to denounce in order to sound more "on the player's side".

    That being said, to me pay 2 win gives you a distinct advantage over someone who doesn't pay.

    Buying conquest gear gives no advantage over someone who collects it with time. Let's be perfectly honest, the barrier to gear in PvP is simply time. Anyone could grind out bgs and load up the conquest they need to buy a full set of 550. Not to mention hit some lucky drops off celestials. Not talking about elite gear which is a signal of actual accomplishment.

    I personally think PvP gear is a dumb concept and everyone should have normalized stats upon entering PvP combat, looking at your gear and scaling it to whatever item level they choose to balance at, so it will still be customized based on what secondaries you decide to stack.

    If your team has 3 people who bought a full set of conquest and you face off against 3 who grinded it out, you have no advantage. Likely your opponent has more experience and will defeat you. But the playing field is even. The only factors are now skill and comp.

    That's how it should be. Right now the PvP scene is in a pathetic state because it rewards no lifers over people who are just good at their class. You need to put in X hours to get the gear before competing for the skill based rewards. Blizzard prefers to keep you on a treadmill for gear instead of allowing PvP to be open to all comers and reward the best. Instead it just becomes a pool of players who use gear to destroy noobs and feel they are better when it's the gear carrying them.

    I honestly think if you feel you are skilled at your class, it shouldn't matter where your opponent got his gear. To me worrying that random Joe has the same gear as you just proves you aren't too confident in your own abilities.

    It all depends on your view of what you think this game should be about. Should it reward time spent or skill? IMO skill only.

    This isn't pay to win in my eyes, not even close. To me that regular 550 set is just the base of what you need to compete. The "winning" of pvp is Hero of the Horde, Vicious Saddles, Elite Transmog, RBG titles, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Extremity View Post
    I like turtles. I would like turtle-based tier sets. I would like a turtle shell helmet, and perhaps a cheeseburger backpack and a chestpiece that simply places a red gemstone on my bellybutton.

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