Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
This seems kind of counter intuitive? You list the (quite reasonable) amount of counter abilities we have, then immediately change to tremor nerf being too much? Purge, Wind Shear and Grounding haven't gone anywhere.

The issue with the old Tremor was it was just a stomp fest, with no real fun play for either player. 100% Uptime of that kind of ability just isn't fun, as there was pretty much no downside at all to using it. It's only limitations used to be the fact you could (if you were lucky) fear the shaman then wand the totem before it pulsed (it used to pulse slower than it does now), and the fact that you couldn't use Earthbind at the same time. The pulse speed got increased ages ago, so that is even harder to pull off now, so its only real downside with no CD would be Earthbind Totem, which you wouldn't use if the enemy fears were a bigger threat than the benefit of slowing them. Hence, the CD was introduced.

That leaves it in its live state, where there is even less counter play than there was before. There is no way at all for a Priest or Warlock to prevent a Shaman from getting out of fear with Tremor totem unless they layer another CC on top at the same time (Silence), which kind of totally defeats the object of the fear in the first place other than to effectively work as a root. It is too strong in this form, lots of high end PvPers say so, and obviously Blizzard agrees. As such, it gets nerfed.
Purge/WS/Grounding are still there, but have been nerfed a lil over the years.... you could say they are balanced now but I would say that is with tremor included. I do think that WS should have a longer lockout tho, so its 4/12 not 3/12.

The new tremor with "on use" activation was a good change, and I didn't mind it with the way the other totems worked. I think its perfectly fine if a Shaman can break out of fear once a min, it's our counter to fear... other classes have similar counters or immunity to certain CC like warr/zerker rage or dk/lichborne. If the enemy team plays smartly, they can make us "waste" our tremor CD also.... by fearing just the shaman during an important time to force TT, or even using other CC like charm or sleep, which classes like lock or hunter can still do.

Why are they nerfing our CC breaker but not other classes? It's not really fair considering how few other utilities we have..... no high mobility, no strong CC's, lower burst then before. Seems like just cause it has the group effect, it is nerfed. What is the point of having totems with auras if not for their group effect, and why continue to punish us for a mechanic that they put in?

Trying to predict a fear is just dumb.... you can interrupt casted fears, but the group fears which tremor is used for are all instant and we can easily waste the CD trying to predict it.... which then makes us all sitting ducks.

Alternative suggestions:

-Just reduce the immunity to 3 sec instead of 6, leave rest alone.
-Make personal use only but still useable while CC'd (so as resto I can break myself out and then dispel my allies, or as a DPS CC the enemy until my allies get out of the fear)
-Put a 2min internal CD on the group fear break, so we can still use every min on ourselves but it only breaks teammates every 2 min

I would prob prefer any of those to making TT precast, as that just won't work at all in PVP and make us waste alot of TT, gimping the Shaman in the end and forcing us to use a trinket or something if we really need to escape.


1st - PvP is balanced around 3v3, always has been. It is basically impossible to balance both 3v3 and BGs. There is too much going on in a BG to properly balance.

2nd - You say Hex and CPT are a joke, but their CCs are still pretty strong. I 100% agree, and have been saying for a long time now, that Totemic Projection should be baseline, it would fix a lot of issues with Shaman. I also am beginning to lean in the direction that Persistence should be baseline too. I like the elemental restriction, but maybe 2 at once would be alright, alleviate some of the issues but not make it too strong. That would allow for you to protect your CPT by both moving it on top of the opponent the moment it is going to fire and dropping it originally out of their way, as well as dropping a Grounding Totem to protect it too.

3rd - As for Hex, if they removed the graphic and made it a silence+disarm effect, would that make you happier? I feel like the 'issue' with Hex is people compare it too what it shares DR with - Polymorph - and think because Poly is better then Hex must be terrible. If they had introduced it in WoD, with the DR pool it now shares, and called it a Silence + Disarm effect baked into one single spell, I'm pretty sure people would like it. An 8 second silence+disarm, that is a curse so not all Healers can even dispel it, seems pretty alright to me?
These are all very good ideas and I agree with them. Talents like Totemic Projection and Persistance should be baseline for all shaman, we need Proj to fully utilize our totems, and with so many long duration totems now plus longer CD's a talent like Persistance makes sense to overcome barriers that never existed with our original totem design (which had low/zero CD and easily to replace between each other). I have always thought that Grounding should be used to protect other totems like CPT, but not possible without persistance. As for Hex, yea its OK for a CC.... I am fine with its design, but I kinda wish it would root the enemy or atleast greatly slow them like a daze effect.


I agree with the first part of this statement. I think it is pretty clear that the direction Blizzard want to take Totems is very confused. I think they went on the right track in MoP, making them more cooldown based and removing boring passives, but they should go further with it I think. Make them more integral to our class again.

Suggestions?

I was thinking of suggestions, and it occurred to me that Totems work best when they are actually real world effects, not glorified Buffs with a graphic. Totems like Earthbind, Spiritlink and Capacitor (whether you like the charge up time or not, a placed AoE stun is pretty cool) are the most engaging. I'd like more totems like that, give Shaman a sort of 'zone control' feel. If you fight with Shaman in their 'totem zone' you are in for a bad time, but if you force them out of it they are significantly weakened.

<Ideas for Elem/Enh/Resto>

All these totems would be movable with Totemic Projection (so once every 10 seconds), and more importantly, would only be killable from within their aura. This prevents the Shaman getting gimped by a wand attack, as well as forcing enemies to come to you (which you could see as a bad thing, but it would essentially work as a kind of CC, like a massive global taunt, which would help protect your team, as if they ignore you and go for your team you unleash hell on them).

Obviously these are all just ideas, but the general premise I think should be totems should be a much more integral part of our class, not just utility (though Utility would certainly be part of it, and I wouldn't want to lose the utility we already have from them), but also raw power. In PvE utility is only interesting too a point, and is often left completely ignored, and in PvP if an entire 'genre', for lack of a better word, of your spells is based essentially around defense, it can feel pretty lame because it seems like you are always on the back foot.
These are some pretty cool ideas, and could be alot of fun to use in PVP.... but unfortunetly with how mobile PVP is, they will never work. That has been the problem with totems from the start, they have always tried to mimic the ideas you suggested with stuff like ebind and magma to slow and do constant damage in an area and then throw a CPT in there to stun em..... but people can always just run out of range, or use their many escapes like blink or sprints. Using proj helps a little, but its still not enough to really force the enemy to stay in a certain area for long periods of time. Even if fighting around a pillar, if there is too much crap in one area they will move the fight to a different pillar and keep kiting.

I've really given up on totems for the most part, being stationary they are not good for mobile PVP, and any useful group buffs make it a target for nerfs all the time. They are not really creating a platform that promotes the creation of new and unique totems either, because of current problems (like one of each element and longer durations/cds). I think a "pull totem" like druid's ursol vortex would be kinda cool though, and we could combine it with CPT to chain together a few sec of CC and screw with the enemy team.